How people learn to become resilient (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#11

Post by majormajor » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #8

inglor_cz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to think of resilience as a psychical equivalent of the calluses on your fingers that you get from playing the guitar. Developing them is painful, but they give you power to try and do something bigger.

IOW "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

This is certainly wildly untrue for many sorts of trauma. What doesn't kill you can leave you less capable, weaker, more vulnerable, etc...

You might have to be resilient to deal with the trauma without collapsing, and then find that you still have to be resilient to deal with your new, permanently changed life after the fact too.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#12

Post by GenerocUsername » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

psychtrauma wrote: post #7

majormajor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are saying you don't think your own resilience is anything to be proud of, I think you are failing to consider those who faced trauma and failed to handle it. I too know the "what the fuck else am I supposed to do" feeling in response to people saying stuff like "how did you deal with something like that?" or "you're so strong" but I think it does a disservice to yourself to ignore that crumpling under the pre…

> I think you are failing to consider those who faced trauma and failed to handle it. I would have previously agreed with you, and I think that is an important viewpoint that is useful to contemplate deeply. But, I now wish to reject the point of view that I should be proud because I faced my individual trauma somehow 'better' than those other people. Those other people shouldn't have faced that trauma either.

Trauma is the natural state of the universe. To think life should be free of trauma is a hyper-modern and sheltered view of the world enabled by our extreme comfort provided by modern technology and the invisible labor from less privelidged people and those who lived and died before us.

Trauma is the natural state, and our resilience has and always will be a defining characteristic of successful people... Of whom we are descendents.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#13

Post by ericmcer » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

In this sense, privilege just lets you circumvent having to learn to be resilient. You can choose the amount of stressors you want to let in. I have two friends who come from wealthy backgrounds, one is putting in 70-80hour weeks doing residency at a hospital, the other doesn't work and couldn't deal with the bay area rental market, so their parents purchased them a $1.5m home.

I guess what I am getting at is there is a blend of self-respect, self-expectation, discipline, morality or something involved. At a certain point a person decides to stop trying to fight and be comfortable with whatever hand they have.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#14

Post by ericmcer » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #3

Someone smarter than I am should draw parallels from this to modern social justice movements.

"Unfortunately, the opposite may also be true. “We can become less resilient, or less likely to be resilient,” Bonanno says. “We can create or exaggerate stressors very easily in our own minds. That’s the danger of the human condition.”"

It isn't that difficult to draw parallels lol.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#15

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #3

Someone smarter than I am should draw parallels from this to modern social justice movements.

[deleted]

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#16

Post by Fellshard » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

psychtrauma wrote: post #7

majormajor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are saying you don't think your own resilience is anything to be proud of, I think you are failing to consider those who faced trauma and failed to handle it. I too know the "what the fuck else am I supposed to do" feeling in response to people saying stuff like "how did you deal with something like that?" or "you're so strong" but I think it does a disservice to yourself to ignore that crumpling under the pre…

> I think you are failing to consider those who faced trauma and failed to handle it. I would have previously agreed with you, and I think that is an important viewpoint that is useful to contemplate deeply. But, I now wish to reject the point of view that I should be proud because I faced my individual trauma somehow 'better' than those other people. Those other people shouldn't have faced that trauma either.

You reject it, sure. But you are providing no cogent reasons for doing so — merely saying 'I changed my mind' is no argument that will persuade others, unless you're expecting your prior trauma somehow credentials you to authoritatively create truth.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#17

Post by ceh123 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #3

Someone smarter than I am should draw parallels from this to modern social justice movements.

>Werner wrote. Perhaps most importantly, the resilient children had what psychologists call an “internal locus of control”: they believed that they, and not their circumstances, affected their achievements. The resilient children saw themselves as the orchestrators of their own fates. In fact, on a scale that measured locus of control, they scored more than two standard deviations away from the standardization group.

This sort of reasoning is exactly why I intentionally moved away from leftist frameworks that (although many of them I would argue are more correct) focus heavily on systemic critiques. This is my main problem with a good amount of leftist philosophy and why I much prefer the frameworks of post-modernists.

Even when the systemic analysis might be correct, if your goal is to improve your life it is far more important to move the locus of control into yourself rather than examine things outside your control that might be working against you.

Edit: e.g. if you want to get a new/better job it's far more productive after receiving a rejection letter to ask questions like "what did I do wrong?" and "what can I do differently next time?" than it is to worry about what systemic factors make you less likely to get the job.

I also want to be explicit that this is not a critique of the validity or importance of systemic critiques, more so just what I found to be practical in my life.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#18

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

rednerrus wrote: post #3

Someone smarter than I am should draw parallels from this to modern social justice movements.

You mean the people who are out there (to use terms from the article) meeting the world on their own terms, believing that they (and not their circumstances) affect their achievements?

You realize that the idea of characterizing a large and active social movement as an idle demand for a handout and government coddling is just spin, right? Have you ever met a serious SJW? Do they seem like apathetic victims to you, or do they have the kind of "resilience" detailed in the article?

You seem to be taking the article to mean that "injustice is OK because can just be resilient and endure it"?

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#19

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

ceh123 wrote: post #17

rednerrus wrote: post #3

Someone smarter than I am should draw parallels from this to modern social justice movements.

>Werner wrote. Perhaps most importantly, the resilient children had what psychologists call an “internal locus of control”: they believed that they, and not their circumstances, affected their achievements. The resilient children saw themselves as the orchestrators of their own fates. In fact, on a scale that measured locus of control, they scored more than two standard deviations away from the standardization group.…

I don't follow your conclusion here. So... you don't think that there are systemic problems worth correcting? Or you think there are, but you don't want to because the disadvantaged should just be resilient instead?

It's one thing to say that there are alternative therapies to pulling down statues and burning shit in the street. It's rather another to reject the goals of a movement because you don't like their tactics.

Re: How people learn to become resilient (2016)

#20

Post by currymj » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

a major part of 12-step programs is getting people to shift to an external locus of control. they're supposed to accept that they have a permanent problem that it's totally beyond their power to fix.

somehow this helps people make difficult, lasting changes in their lives that were previously beyond them, which is exactly the opposite of what should happen according to the research profiled in this article.

I think it's probably valuable to have an accurate locus of control -- the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Unfortunately this idea that an internal locus of control is always the superior, correct attitude is already floating out into pop psychology in schools and workplaces. I'm sure the actual research is nuanced and interesting but that's not what's reaching people.