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Gödel's Loophole

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Re: Gödel's Loophole

#11

Post by FrozenVoid »

Blammar wrote: post #3

I might have heard that in Godel's library there was a book with the note: "I have a truly marvelous proof that the U.S. Constitution is unstable, but the margin of this book is too small to write it out." More seriously, this is actually a bit reminiscent of Fermat's famous comment. I suppose when the lawbots become operational in a few years, we'll get a full logical analysis of the Constitution and find the loopho…

Godel's loophole is technicality of minor importance if its entirely confined to the constitution. The real loophole likely relates to presidential powers in relation to constitution itself: the expansion of executive in 20th century and executive orders that have not been found contradicting the law, might allow a precedent to create an "emergency powers" system to bypass constitution itself and rule by decree('executive orders').

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#12

Post by jimmyed »

> Gödel responded "Oh, yes, I can prove it," but the judge declined to pursue the matter.

Such a mundane judge. It's as if someone says to a physicist "I have the General Unified Theory" and they decide to not listen to it.

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#13

Post by saberdancer »

This is why there are checks and balances. The laws and constitutions are not rules in a game that can be exploited arbitrarily. There is an intention behind them and law is and should be interpreted in that way.

If this loophole exists it probably goes against the intention of the lawmakers and would be struck down by supreme court.

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#14

Post by jimmyed »

tempaccount99 wrote: post #8

I suspect such loopholes exist in other constitutions, constitutions like source codes have influenced other constitutions. Most recent small example in this area : Government of India used article 370 to ammend article 367 which again affected article 370 to change status of Jammu and Kashmir.

No tempaccount99, that would be a regular amendment. Not a fascist dictatorship-ish "loophole"

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#15

Post by IsopropylMalbec »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #2

There is no need for a loop hole. A president can do plenty of illegal things without consequences already. Incrementally do it while the public becomes numb to it, or worse, while vocal supporters becomes more nad more entitles, and you get to a dictatorship.

The Wikipedia article about it mentions using Article V against itself, slowly erroding it and the Constitution. That doesn't seem like the loophole Godel might be concerned about. if he did find something more concerning then given his skills this looks like nearly perfect security by obscurity.

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#16

Post by wkyle »

There seems to be a lot of dismissal in this thread about the consequences of a Constitutionally-legal road to dictatorship.

The historical precedent to this concern is the Nazification of Germany. After Hitler was appointed chancellor, the Enabling Act[1] was passed as an amendment to the constitution. This gave Hitler the power to pass unconstitutional laws without parliamentary or presidential approval.

I think the possibility of iterative erosion of Article V such that the the entrenched clause that protects the composition of the Senate from change without unanimity can be removed is very comparable. This is concerning in an age where a once-majority party has been largely supportive of a figure who's displayed dictatorial tendencies.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#18

Post by monocasa »

lmm wrote: post #4

The law is not a formal system, it's a tool for humans to decide how to act. If those humans decide they want a tyranny, no amount of words on paper could ever stop them.

It's a bit of both, depending on what those in power need it to be.

I think Gödel's concern was for the people who might not agree with it installing a dictator, but go "well, it's legal and it's what the founding fathers wrote" and therefore go along with it.

Re: Gödel's Loophole

#19

Post by monocasa »

saberdancer wrote: post #13

This is why there are checks and balances. The laws and constitutions are not rules in a game that can be exploited arbitrarily. There is an intention behind them and law is and should be interpreted in that way. If this loophole exists it probably goes against the intention of the lawmakers and would be struck down by supreme court.

There's some thought that it's around presidential pardons, and it's not clear the supreme court would strike down nearly any use of them or allow the legislature to do so short of an amendment.
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