Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution' • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#11

Post by high_derivative » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe.

'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast'

For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#12

Post by throaway_484888 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #3

This seems like a case where the precautionary principle is misleading. Maybe there's a small chance that the vaccine can be harmful for a few people. Meanwhile there's a large chance that not having the vaccine can increase your chance of getting COVID. Doesn't even a week's delay in vaccinating predictably increase the number of deaths in a country, perhaps by a large amount given the nonlinear dynamics of epidemic…

> I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so.

It's the EU's punishment for the UK leaving. I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#13

Post by WesolyKubeczek » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

isolli wrote: post #6

pixiemaster wrote: post #2

with ~300 deaths per day in germany, how many people will this kill?

Vaccine-related deaths are highly visible, daily covid deaths not so much...

They have been very visible a year ago (jeez, it's been a year already, what a time to live in), but people got mightily desensitized to this. 300 more deaths? Meh. In the other news, the sun continues to rise every morning.

Until of course it's yourself, a family member, or a friend that joins the rank of those 300.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#14

Post by mns » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

high_derivative wrote: post #11

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...

If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#15

Post by majewsky » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #3

This seems like a case where the precautionary principle is misleading. Maybe there's a small chance that the vaccine can be harmful for a few people. Meanwhile there's a large chance that not having the vaccine can increase your chance of getting COVID. Doesn't even a week's delay in vaccinating predictably increase the number of deaths in a country, perhaps by a large amount given the nonlinear dynamics of epidemic…

> even a week's delay in vaccinating [may] predictably increase the number of deaths in a country

The big impact is not a few days of delay. The big impact is the loss of trust in this vaccine in the general populace.

> I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so.

Obvious disclaimer: I'm not a medical expert.

However, I wouldn't be so sure it's a wise decision. I primarily trust Karl Lauterbach's [1] opinion on these matters, and he is actively criticizing the move on Twitter as an overreaction [2].

[1] Karl Lauterbach is the director of an institute for epidemiology at a German university and also a member of the German Federal parliament for the Social Democrats (who are part of the current coalition).

[2] Source (in German): https://twitter.com/Karl_Lauterbach/status/13714710614018949...

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#16

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

mns wrote: post #7

greenpresident wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Casual estimates are at 1700/week. https://mobile.twitter.com/politicsforali/status/13714790084...

So you are saying that no one would die in Germany if the vaccine would not be temporarily suspended? That's a bit simplistic. Not to mention that we go so far as to consider that every life is precious and we need to fight for every single COVID patient, but the people that could be affected by this are just statistically insignificant.

From the numbers I saw, the problems with AZ seem to affect only a very small portion of people.

It kind of feels like people are only now reading the note that comes with a drug. And we are using these drugs on millions of people, so yeah even the one in a million complications will start to show.

It sure seems that AZ is singled out on that so. And I really wonder why. Because it sure is getting into dangerous territory by now that we are artificialy limiting our vaccine availability.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#17

Post by high_derivative » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

mns wrote: post #14

high_derivative wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...

If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.

The difference being that there is no evidence yet to point towards vaccinations causing these, while there is plenty evidence for covid. Further, there is plenty of evidence for the lost lives by NOT vaccinating faster.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#18

Post by drcode » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

A problem with bureaucracies is that they often care deeply if people die from an action they are responsible for, but are fine if there are massive deaths due to inaction.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#19

Post by corndoge » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #9

The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.

Is that obvious? If you have the choice between self quarantining and trying to avoid contracting a virus that, if contracted, has a low percentage of killing you, vs choosing to get a vaccine that also has a low percentage of killing you, why would you choose the vaccine?

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#20

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

I'm not sure at this point. When it was one suspicious death, countries suspending the vaccine definitely seemed like an overreaction, and unfortunately this particular vaccine has been something of a political football and subject of a lot of noise.

But as more blood-clot deaths emerge... you gotta think caution is wise.

OTOH yes, we in the UK have administered a lot of this stuff, and you'd think someone would have noticed a serious side effect like this. So far reports from the UK seem to show no greater incidence of blood clot problems than would be expected without the vaccine.

Difficult to call, but I hope it's all being investigated thoroughly.