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Translating Newton’s Principia

principia.blog

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Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#11
post #4

The author's take on V.18 is interesting. Clarke has the proposition here: https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/bookV/propV1... It's not three pages long in Clarke (nor in Heath), and either way, the argument is only 10 statements long. > But the reader who takes the trouble to decode the proposition will see that it is trivial primary school arithmetic. This is also not super obvious from Clarke or Heath.…

Euclid, Book 5, Proposition 18. If magnitudes, taken separately, be proportionals, they shall also be proportionals when taken jointly; that is, if the first be to the second as the third to the fourth, then the first and second together shall be to the second as the third and fourth together to the fourth.

This is from the Todhunter edition of Euclid's elements. the proof occupies precisely three pages. in post-Euclidean notation, if a/b = c/d then (a+b)/b = (c+d)/d. For young children replace the letters by small positive integers.

To convert Euclid's formulation to the symbolic formulation requires turning a magnitude into a real number, and defining the division of two real numbers. Euclid's proof avoids these difficulties. His magnitudes are the lengths straight line sections. He can decode a/b = m/n where m and n are positive integers as meaning na = mb. And similarly he can define a/b > m/n and m/n > a/b. So now the statement a/b > c/d can be decoded as the existence of positive integers m and n such that a/b > m/n > c/d. Finally the statement a/b = c/d is decoded as asserting that both a/b > c/d and c/d > a/b are false.

In modern jargon, Euclid is using the Dedekind cut definition of a real number. Using this definition, and working from first principles, the proof unsurprisingly requires three pages.

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#12
Maybe off-topic, but Prof. Chomsky always mention how important Newton was in the history of science and how significant his giving up on the mechanical philosophy when he failed to explain gravity in a mechanical way, how "lowering the bar" was important to set a realistic direction for science.

He has many lectures about it, I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0, one of the best lectures ever.

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#13

Maybe off-topic, but Prof. Chomsky always mention how important Newton was in the history of science and how significant his giving up on the mechanical philosophy when he failed to explain gravity in a mechanical way, how "lowering the bar" was important to set a realistic direction for science. He has many lectures about it, I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0 , one of the best lectures eve…

[deleted]

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#14

I found the Green Lion Press version on Newton super helpful for distilling his argument so that a modern reader could understand it. https://greenlion.com/books/NewtonPrincipia.html

I don't see a pdf or kindle version on amazon, does it exist? did you get a hard copy?

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#15
This reminds me of the Polish dictionary parable, where one guy must translate a letter written in Polish to English.

He knows strictly no Polish, but ... he has a Polish dictionary.

Not a Polish to English dictionary, mind you ... a Polish to Polish dictionary.

Historical, religious, scientific, political context carries a ton of unspoken information, and when you try to read a text without the context ...

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#16

Maybe off-topic, but Prof. Chomsky always mention how important Newton was in the history of science and how significant his giving up on the mechanical philosophy when he failed to explain gravity in a mechanical way, how "lowering the bar" was important to set a realistic direction for science. He has many lectures about it, I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0 , one of the best lectures eve…

I greatly enjoyed that, thank you. It's much easier to follow Chomsky @ 1.25x speed, lol. I found his assertion and explanation during the questions section about the meaninglessness of "the physical" to be rather illuminating.

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#17
post #4

The author's take on V.18 is interesting. Clarke has the proposition here: https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/bookV/propV1... It's not three pages long in Clarke (nor in Heath), and either way, the argument is only 10 statements long. > But the reader who takes the trouble to decode the proposition will see that it is trivial primary school arithmetic. This is also not super obvious from Clarke or Heath.…

> I'd love to know how the author would render this proposition trivial to a fourth grader. Looking at the diagram in your link, and labelling AE x , EB y , CF a and FD b , "Let AE, EB, CF, and FD be magnitudes proportional taken separately, so that AE is to EB as CF is to FD. I say that they are also proportional taken jointly, that is, AB is to BE as CD is to FD.", means : If x/y = a/b, then also (x+y) / y = (a+b)…

Right - that argument, I'm suggesting, is way beyond most fourth graders even in its modern algebraic form. It relies on lots of algebraic techniques that aren't generally taught until 7th or 8th grade.

It's not, like, rocket science, but it's not trivial either.

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#18
post #16

Maybe off-topic, but Prof. Chomsky always mention how important Newton was in the history of science and how significant his giving up on the mechanical philosophy when he failed to explain gravity in a mechanical way, how "lowering the bar" was important to set a realistic direction for science. He has many lectures about it, I like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5in5EdjhD0 , one of the best lectures eve…

I greatly enjoyed that, thank you. It's much easier to follow Chomsky @ 1.25x speed, lol. I found his assertion and explanation during the questions section about the meaninglessness of "the physical" to be rather illuminating.

You did? Maybe you can explain it to me, because I rather thought it was a pure semantic game. Saying that "material" is no longer considered relevant was just a typical intellectual game of stripping words from their usual definitions.

(I also despise his continual use of the rhetoric device during his lecture of claiming that a particular philosophical debate has been settled and the "evident" correct answer is his own position on the subject. He keeps using that turn of phrase where his opinion is presented as the only tenable one by an intelligent thinker. He always does that. I think it's a weak trick so silence critics.)

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to know how the author would render this proposition trivial to a fourth grader. Looking at the diagram in your link, and labelling AE x , EB y , CF a and FD b , "Let AE, EB, CF, and FD be magnitudes proportional taken separately, so that AE is to EB as CF is to FD. I say that they are also proportional taken jointly, that is, AB is to BE as CD is to FD.", means : If x/y = a/b, then also (x+y) / y = (a+b)…

Right - that argument, I'm suggesting, is way beyond most fourth graders even in its modern algebraic form. It relies on lots of algebraic techniques that aren't generally taught until 7th or 8th grade. It's not, like, rocket science, but it's not trivial either.

Well, it does seem to me fair to say that "it is trivial primary school arithmetic". But I guess the truth of whether it is or it isn't trivial, isn't really something that can be scientifically tested – it rests on how exactly you define "trivial", what you count as the involved operations etc. Well, we could go further into it if we wanted (e.g. What are these "lots of algebraic techniques" involved in these 2 little steps?!) but having asserted our rivals claims without much evidence feels like a good place to stop – this time. :-)

Edit: Or I suppose "tabooing"[0] the word trivial would have helped – it was the trouble-maker.

[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/WBdvyyHLdxZSAMmoz/taboo-your...

Re: Translating Newton’s Principia

#20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I greatly enjoyed that, thank you. It's much easier to follow Chomsky @ 1.25x speed, lol. I found his assertion and explanation during the questions section about the meaninglessness of "the physical" to be rather illuminating.

You did? Maybe you can explain it to me, because I rather thought it was a pure semantic game. Saying that "material" is no longer considered relevant was just a typical intellectual game of stripping words from their usual definitions. (I also despise his continual use of the rhetoric device during his lecture of claiming that a particular philosophical debate has been settled and the "evident" correct answer is his…

I believe that’s just a different perspective on effective communication. Otherwise he would constantly need to hedge his points.
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