Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics' • Hacker News Board

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#11

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

> what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished? A big part of the answer is the Sack of Baghdad in 1258 by the Mongol armies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)#Destru... >Contemporary accounts state Mongol soldiers looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals. Priceless books from Baghdad's thirty-six public libraries were torn apart, the looters using th…

yes. I had read this one some time ago. My question still stands, what made muslims go from inquisitive science seekers like the one in the article, father of robotics, to "science=bad". This sentiment is continuing to this day with almost all the religious preachers who find it "incomprehensible" that science can exist in the same plane as religion. To explain my point, the "talk of the town" is usually whenever the weatherman comes on the news and says something like "we forecast heavy rains for 2 days then sunny day for a week". As a person who "gets science" i know what this guy just said so i'm like "ok. fine so prepare for a jacket to work" while the religious folk say "this is heresy. do you know if god wants, god can change night into day, rain into sun in the blink of an eye. saying what will happen tomorrow is saying you are not a believer in god because god can end the world today and there be no tomorrow or god can make tomorrow a sunny day when this guy is saying it will rain".

You know in india and pakistan, in present times, 2020 and coming 2021, there is "always" a fight between science people and religious people on the "appearance of crescent" on religious days. the science folk say the motion of moon is calculated and we can precisely know for next hundreds of years if on a particular day the crescent will be visible from a location but the religious folk refuse to accept.

what i am saying is what made these religious folk distrust and hate science ? did someone tell them don't promote science or it will eat their lunch? or something else?

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#12

Post by idlewords » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

> what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished? A big part of the answer is the Sack of Baghdad in 1258 by the Mongol armies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)#Destru... >Contemporary accounts state Mongol soldiers looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals. Priceless books from Baghdad's thirty-six public libraries were torn apart, the looters using th…

Baghdad was not the intellectual center of Islam at the time of the Mongol invasion, that was Central Asia. Neither was the Mongol invasion dispositive, though it is significant that the Mongols razed cities whose irrigation systems were one of the ingredients for the high degree of technical and theoretical knowledge supporting the enlightenment.

As I commented elsewhere in the thread, there's a terrific recent history of all of this: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691165851/lo...

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#13

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #10

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

There is a book you should read, Lost Enlightenment: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691165851/lo... The flourishing of Islamic science took place not in Baghdad, but in Central Asia, and it was already in steep decline when al-Ghazali wrote his polemics. The reasons for both the rise and decline of the Central Asian enlightenment are fascinating and complex. The tl;dr is that these cities (most now r…

thank you. I will be going through this book as early as possible.

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#14

Post by Zariff » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

Neil deGrasse Tyson also mentioned this. User noufalibrahim already gave a good response to that. But if you're interested, Mohammed Hijab also replied to that claim in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfRnYNig9jU&t=36s&ab_channel...

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#15

Post by 2Gkashmiri » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

noufalibrahim wrote: post #4

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

This is an oft repeated piece of idle scholarship that atheists and orientalists use to "explain" the decline of the so called "Islamic Golden Age". I've seen Steven Weinberg mention this as well as Neil Tyson. The factors were complex. There were economic and socio-political events that affected the stability and life in these societies. Several other reasons contributed to this downfall and it finally happened. To…

no. You are not answering my question. you are simply saying dont blame ghazali. My question is, what caused the death of "desire for scientific temper" and economic conditions do not change someones quest for knowledge or for that matter, influence an entire population away from science who took to avoid it like the plague. I had this talk with a guy last week and when i mentioned ghazali, he said something on the lines of "are you talking about his first phase or second phase?" then when i showed him this quote, this person goes "yes. obviously his first phase. in his second phase he rejected his earlier texts and even started learning the same thing he rejected earlier but the damage was done".

You cant just tell a population to reject a way of thinking but apparently someone did manage to do that

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#16

Post by artem247 » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #15

noufalibrahim wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an oft repeated piece of idle scholarship that atheists and orientalists use to "explain" the decline of the so called "Islamic Golden Age". I've seen Steven Weinberg mention this as well as Neil Tyson. The factors were complex. There were economic and socio-political events that affected the stability and life in these societies. Several other reasons contributed to this downfall and it finally happened. To…

no. You are not answering my question. you are simply saying dont blame ghazali. My question is, what caused the death of "desire for scientific temper" and economic conditions do not change someones quest for knowledge or for that matter, influence an entire population away from science who took to avoid it like the plague. I had this talk with a guy last week and when i mentioned ghazali, he said something on the l…

>> economic conditions do not change someones quest for knowledge

In my country science almost ceased to exist after the fall of Soviet Union. So economic conditions do play a role. The western Age of Reason in XVIII also has relationship to complex changes in the society - rise of merchant class, acceptance of usury, etc. And I would say that "whole population avoids science like a plague" would be a strong overstatement more echoing the modern view on Islamic countries with strong Salafi influence.

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#17

Post by keiferski » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

christkv wrote: post #7

I’ve always wondered if the Ottoman Empire in many ways was the root of the problem as it traded stability of empire over anything else.

Al-Jazari lived centuries before the Ottomans existed.

Otherwise, having studied the Ottomans extensively, I wouldn’t say they chose stability over anything else. Their slow downfall was due more to a gradual fossilization of their institutions. For example, the Janissaries went from a highly-trained elite force to essentially a social club that everyone wanted to join. The sultans themselves also gradually became less competent.

Also of note is that the Ottomans were initially on the cutting edge of military technology and even exported quite a lot of it to the Mughals, who then had an advantage over their opponents. So, they certainly weren’t “behind” technologically.

Pretty much the same pattern as any empire, really. Initial warrior class conquers land, their immediate descendants develop a refined culture, and it’s all downhill from there as following generations aim but fail to recapture the magic.

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#18

Post by keiferski » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

History is really not that simple and you should always be wary of anyone trying to ascribe blame to a single person or event.

There were many events that led to the “end of the Islamic Golden Age,” but a closer analysis reveals that nothing really ended, but simply was moved around.

Consider that the Ottomans were technologically superior to Europeans until about the 17th century, or that Al-Andalus was around until the 15th century.

But, overall, the single biggest event to impact the era was probably the Mongol sacking of Baghdad. That ended a lot of intellectual culture in rather violent fashion.

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#19

Post by selimthegrim » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #17

christkv wrote: post #7

I’ve always wondered if the Ottoman Empire in many ways was the root of the problem as it traded stability of empire over anything else.

Al-Jazari lived centuries before the Ottomans existed. Otherwise, having studied the Ottomans extensively, I wouldn’t say they chose stability over anything else. Their slow downfall was due more to a gradual fossilization of their institutions. For example, the Janissaries went from a highly-trained elite force to essentially a social club that everyone wanted to join. The sultans themselves also gradually became le…

Two black marks in my book

Selim I banning the printing press and and destruction of Taqiuddin’s observatory under Murad III

Re: Ismail al-Jazari – the medieval 'Father of Robotics'

#20

Post by abdulhaq » Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #2

in my family there has been a simple question being raised for as many years i can remember but there has never been a satisfactory answer yet. "if early muslims had all the science, mathematics, geography, philosophy and all fields of science including hundreds of scientists who laid down the foundations of modern science with their works, what happened 800 years ago that all that science just vanished?" Then years…

Lots of big mistakes here. His name was Abu Hamid alGhazali. If you read his "almunqidh min aD-Dalaal" (Deliverance From Error) which was an autobiography and summary of his thought, he states that e.g.

"MATHEMATICS. This embraces arithmetic, plane geometry and solid geometry. None of its results are connected with religious matters, either to deny or to affirm them. They are matters of demonstration which it is impossible to deny once they have been understood and apprehended."

"LOGIC. Nothing in logic is relevant to religion by way of denial or affirmation.",

"Just as it is not a condition of religion to reject medical science, so likewise the rejection of natural science is not one of its conditions, except with regard to particular points".

You can find the text at https://ghazali.org/books/md/gz101.htm, for me this was a very influential book.