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FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

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Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#11
As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions:

- Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members.

- Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or checking which entries are already on the device? The ideal would probably be if the device acts like a USB stick, with entries being shown as .bin/.txt files which can be manipulated in the normal ways.

- How easy is it to create a backup? The ideal (for non-techies) would probably be something like plugging a device into a PC and simply copying files across. Ditto for duplicating to another device.

- Is there anything else which would likely stop non-techies from using this for basically everything they care about?

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#12
post #11

As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions: - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members. - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or…

Can't speak for this thing specifically, but FIDO2 keys in general:

- Yes, you have everything you need on every major OS/browser

- These devices are zeroconf; resetting it actually kills a security feature (key use increments) aiming at cloned devices

- The ideal backup for this is to have a separate key, both authorized. They don't need to have the same material, in fact, cloning it would be considered a weakness (how do you know someone hasn't cloned it without your knowledge?)

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#13
post #11

As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions: - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members. - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or…

1. I'm not aware of any drivers being needed on any common platform. Support in Android apps is sometimes not perfect, but that's an app issue rather than a driver issue.

2. No software is required - far easier to use than you describe. You insert it, tap the button when prompted, and that's it. The token will decrypt an wrapped key (held by the remote service) using a hardware backed key, and sign an attestation using it. This attestation is tied to the domain name and URL scheme being accessed, so it "prevents" phishing as you can't trick users into relaying useful tokens.

Note for FIDO2 there may be software to help manage more complex setups like "no username and password needed to login". If you're talking U2F (i.e. just 2FA), no software required.

3. You don't. There isn't anything to back up. You cannot export the internal key state, but services you use hold the (wrapped, encrypted and authenticated) key used for their service server-side. Your device just decrypts it, uses it, and discards it. You do need to think about backup, but you do that by enrolling 2 or more U2F/FIDO2 keys on each service you protect. That's the downside - you need to remember to enrol both keys on each service, every time you make a new account you protect with U2F.

4. Not really, beyond support at service side being limited (mostly) to big security-aware services.

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#14
post #11

As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions: - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members. - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or…

It uses USB HID as a transport.

It should work out of the box on windows 10 and ubuntu. Microsoft is actually one of the largest forces behind the FIDO2 spec. Windows Hello implements FIDO2 too so you can use it dven without a dongle but just with your biometric reader on our laptop

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#15
post #9

How does this compare to a Yubikey for example?

The hardware is open-source, you can theoretically update the firmware so you're not vulnerable if a researcher finds a bug after your purchase, there's currently no support for getting it to act as a keyboard and type the password for you AFAICT, to name a few.

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#16
post #2

I'm still curious how the key is tamper resistent when filling it with transparent epoxy. I asked when the article was published on lobste.rs but never got an answer. It seems to me it should be fairly easy to remove the epoxy and refill after tampering. I should probably email them about this at this point, but I think it's weird they haven't explained the "tampering resistent" part in their marketing material in an…

It's a good question, and I believe they mean in terms of the epoxy making it harder to get easy access to the chip to do any shenanigans.

It's worth remembering the threat model for U2F tokens (let's set aside PIV, FIDO2, etc for the moment) - if the attacker has physical possession then they're into your account. Game over. As the authentication is to tap the button.

Sure you can add PIN via FIDO2 (then these protections make more sense), but I can't see any particular threat whereby you would be concerned about this threat under normal circumstances.

U2F helps normal (and expert) users resist phishing attacks, credential relaying, and avoid keyloggers etc. It doesn't protect you against in-person physical adversaries who can steal your things, or take them against your will.

The only edge case I can see where this matters more is if a user leaves the token unattended (try not to! Put it on your keyring, though admittedly your backup token probably is at risk a little here) and an attacker can covertly extract the keys and leave it as found, such that the user is unaware. But at that point you are dealing with adversaries in the real world, and most users have already lost at that point (passwords written down, etc.)

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#17
post #11

As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions: - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members. - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or…

I use a yubikey, but I suppose the Solo will be similar.

> - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members.

On windows10, yes. I haven't tried it on Ubuntu 20.10 yet, but I think FIDO/WebAuthN will Just Work. (PIV will likely need custom software, but if you're using PIV, you probably know what you're doing).

> - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it

I mean, you rarely want to reset your key to start with, but at least for the yubikey, this requires external software last I checked. Maybe there's a button hidden in the chrome browser UI, but I've never found it. You need yubikey manager (which is yubikey's tool for doing various operations on the yubikey, like configuring what the touch button does, etc...).

> adding an entry

This is done entirely through your browser when setting up 2FA for a website that supports FIDO/WebAuthN. This is done entirely transparently for the user.

> or checking which entries are already on the device?

I don't think you even can do this. I'm not entirely sure how FIDO works, but I think the key is basically derived from some kind of "master" key combined with the domain you're connecting to. So the key doesn't actually have any memory of which servers it ever connected to.

> - Is there anything else which would likely stop non-techies from using this for basically everything they care about?

Well, technically, I don't think there's anything. WebAuthN is rock solid and the UX is really as good as it gets, IMO. The problem is, for many people 2FA is a hassle they don't want to go through. They don't see the need for it. And TBF, for many people, they might be right: they might not need it. So why go through the hassle?

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#19
post #12
post #11

As someone who is comfortable with TOTP but hasn't tried FIDO-/Yubikey-style devices, I have a few questions: - Are drivers for this already installed as part of desktop Ubuntu 20.10/Windows 10? Any driver installation will absolutely make this a no-go for family members. - Is additional software required for anything non-techies might reasonably want to do with this device, including resetting it, adding an entry or…

Can't speak for this thing specifically, but FIDO2 keys in general: - Yes, you have everything you need on every major OS/browser - These devices are zeroconf; resetting it actually kills a security feature (key use increments) aiming at cloned devices - The ideal backup for this is to have a separate key, both authorized. They don't need to have the same material, in fact, cloning it would be considered a weakness (…

>- The ideal backup for this is to have a separate key, both authorized.

This in particular is important. Security is only as strong as your weakest link, so any backup methods (e.g. "forgot password" flows) might as well be your primary method, if you actually care to strongly secure things.

Adding another (or more) key gets you same-security redundancy if one fails or is lost. Nothing else will achieve this.

Degrading to "forgot password" may be entirely fine for [person's] use of a security key, but you must be explicit about that decision, or it's mostly security snake-oil.

Re: FIDO2 security key company releases hardware that's open source and uses Rust

#20
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't speak for this thing specifically, but FIDO2 keys in general: - Yes, you have everything you need on every major OS/browser - These devices are zeroconf; resetting it actually kills a security feature (key use increments) aiming at cloned devices - The ideal backup for this is to have a separate key, both authorized. They don't need to have the same material, in fact, cloning it would be considered a weakness (…

> - The ideal backup for this is to have a separate key, both authorized. This in particular is important. Security is only as strong as your weakest link, so any backup methods (e.g. "forgot password" flows) might as well be your primary method, if you actually care to strongly secure things. Adding another (or more) key gets you same-security redundancy if one fails or is lost. Nothing else will achieve this. Degra…

This is one thing I hate about these keys though - some services only support one key, and for ones that support multiple, I struggle to figure out a storage system for my backup key. I don't want to keep it with me (because then I am at risk of losing both), but if I keep it separate, I need to remember to add it to new accounts - there's no way to see a list of accounts a key has been associated with.

I'm curious how others handle this.

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