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Struggling with the Gender Gap

jeanhsu.com

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Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#11

Post by auganov »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #8
auganov wrote: post #6

If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. All I see is "Look how cool and special I am! I'm a girl and I can navigate in the men's world!". She tries to bring up a problem but I cannot quiet see a real problem there. "Already at a disadvantage, they are playing a seemingly impossible game of catchup with very little positi…

The gender gap means that you can have someone who is absolutely amazing due to her own strengths, but cannot realize them because of the vicious and mean environment around her. One way to deal with this is to strike out at the environment, and I encourage anyone so inclined to give it a shot. They will call you evil things, and you will feel really badly for it. Another way is to reject that environment and build y…

"you can have someone who is absolutely amazing due to her own strengths, but cannot realize them because of the vicious and mean environment around her"

Really? Have you seen a case of somebody that had truly amazing, useful strengths and was still somehow being "blocked" from success by the environment as a whole?

It sounds like a huge conspiracy to me (the way I rephrased it, of course it might not be what you meant).

Like I said amazing people will always have trouble fitting in, but if they can produce amazing results there's always a way to reap rewards from that. There's nothing that's only exclusive to the "gender gap". It's a general fact that being different is not being average. I don't even see a problem!

For me it's like saying 10 sticks out amongst 2s and that it's a problem. Well no wonder it does as 10!=2. It's a fact not a problem.

Either accept that you're different or make yourself more similar, you cannot have both.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#12

Post by gaius »

tuhin wrote: post #9
auganov wrote: post #6

If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. All I see is "Look how cool and special I am! I'm a girl and I can navigate in the men's world!". She tries to bring up a problem but I cannot quiet see a real problem there. "Already at a disadvantage, they are playing a seemingly impossible game of catchup with very little positi…

Disclaimer: The author of the post has been nothing but helpful to me in my latest endeavor and I have never met her in real life (yet). If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. Why should she have to accept it the way it is? As human beings we all have the basic right and duty to improve things for the better. If the sit…

WHY should she try NOT IMPROVE them?

Because she's not trying to improve them - she's trying to skew the game. Maybe it's "male-centric" to insist that only the quality of the work matters - but personally I say that quality of work transcends gender and speaks for itself. Because my long experience of this industry is that we are the least biased people on the planet, gay, straight, black, white, boy, girl, fat, then, it doesn't matter if you can deliver. And if you can't deliver - the excuses that work in the rest of the world - don't cut it with us.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#13

Post by gaius »

From the same author: http://www.jeanhsu.com/2011/02/28/the-benefits-of-being-a-fe...

The odds are really freaking good, and only some of the goods are odd. Sure there are a bunch of socially awkward engineers, but because of the sheer scarcity of women in the field, if you are a single female you can have first pick of a lot of really nice available guys.

I thought the days were past when women only got jobs to find husbands, seems not!

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#14

Post by auganov »

tuhin wrote: post #9
auganov wrote: post #6

If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. All I see is "Look how cool and special I am! I'm a girl and I can navigate in the men's world!". She tries to bring up a problem but I cannot quiet see a real problem there. "Already at a disadvantage, they are playing a seemingly impossible game of catchup with very little positi…

Disclaimer: The author of the post has been nothing but helpful to me in my latest endeavor and I have never met her in real life (yet). If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. Why should she have to accept it the way it is? As human beings we all have the basic right and duty to improve things for the better. If the sit…

It depends on what we understand by "accept". You see, I don't know what's the author's agenda. If she wants to "fight it", change the society so that one day being an average-skilled woman programmer will make you a totally average person amongst programmers. Then that article will probably help to forward that cause and I should not criticize it.

But if she truly believes that being a woman that truly likes programming (aka does not want to be just another average person gluing code for a big company or equivalent) there is so magical force that makes it harder for a woman then she is basically wrong. And that is a feeling I got from reading it, so my "accept" meant recognizing that it's not any harder to be an exceptional programmer for a women and move on.

As for the down-vote I wanted to do it after reading that trick sentence, but somehow I cannot find that option :-). I never vote here anyways.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#15

Post by tuhin »

gaius wrote: post #12
tuhin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: The author of the post has been nothing but helpful to me in my latest endeavor and I have never met her in real life (yet). If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. Why should she have to accept it the way it is? As human beings we all have the basic right and duty to improve things for the better. If the sit…

WHY should she try NOT IMPROVE them? Because she's not trying to improve them - she's trying to skew the game. Maybe it's "male-centric" to insist that only the quality of the work matters - but personally I say that quality of work transcends gender and speaks for itself. Because my long experience of this industry is that we are the least biased people on the planet, gay, straight, black, white, boy, girl, fat, the…

I partly get what you are trying to imply here.

The thing is if she were talking about how people are extra rude with her when she commits a mistake or how she is given lesser opportunities than male counterparts I would totally agree with your point.

However, all she is saying is that the environment and attitude as a whole is not as supportive as it should be. That includes things like 50 females in 1000 programmer group at random, even if it is not within the control of you or I.

We might just need to be a bit more welcoming and receptive to these issues before we start saying that Hey, we have done enough and we no longer have that issue anymore.

Just saying it from a third person's perspective. I have not worked extensively with tech teams where this is a problem but maybe I was naive enough to just not realise that the one female programmer in the team of 25 programmers was not always supported to voice her thoughts about how things can be made better; in code and beyond it.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#16

Post by jamesaguilar »

ctide wrote: post #3

Her opening statement closely resembles what I felt seeing another jeanhsu article about gender. I also thought it was woefully ironic when she mentioned that she has tried to avoid the topic of gender, when in actuality, that's the only correlation I have to her at this point. Jean -- if you don't want to be known as the person who only talks about gender issues, at the very least, try to intersperse some technical…

> at the very least, try to intersperse some technical discussions into your gender articles

Maybe you should check the actual contents of her blog before you post condescending BS like this? Only two of the eight most recent articles are about gender, less if you go further back.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#17

Post by britta »

gaius wrote: post #13

From the same author: http://www.jeanhsu.com/2011/02/28/the-benefits-of-being-a-fe... The odds are really freaking good, and only some of the goods are odd. Sure there are a bunch of socially awkward engineers, but because of the sheer scarcity of women in the field, if you are a single female you can have first pick of a lot of really nice available guys. I thought the days were past when women only got jobs to find…

Attaching a sexist comment to a post about the challenges of being a female engineer is not cute or helpful.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#18

Post by wnoise »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #10
auganov wrote: post #6

If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. All I see is "Look how cool and special I am! I'm a girl and I can navigate in the men's world!". She tries to bring up a problem but I cannot quiet see a real problem there. "Already at a disadvantage, they are playing a seemingly impossible game of catchup with very little positi…

It's a recurring complaint I'm mystified about. Do women really think young male computer nerds got positive feedback and support? Because hell no, that didn't happen. I learned because I was drawn to it. Nobody understood that, it made me a freak, even my few friends thought it was weird, but I couldn't resist. If seeing a perfectly objective machine pronounce your work correct doesn't amaze you, if you need externa…

From other computer nerds, they often do.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#19

Post by wnoise »

auganov wrote: post #6

If she [the author] cares so much about the social aspects of being in IT industry then I don't know why she cannot accept the way it is. All I see is "Look how cool and special I am! I'm a girl and I can navigate in the men's world!". She tries to bring up a problem but I cannot quiet see a real problem there. "Already at a disadvantage, they are playing a seemingly impossible game of catchup with very little positi…

True equality is not when a female Einstein is recognized as such, but when an average female schlub has the same opportunities as an average male schlub.

People beside the top 1% are still people, and the impact on their life does matter.

Re: Struggling with the Gender Gap

#20

Post by rachelbythebay »

auganov wrote: post #11
rachelbythebay wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gender gap means that you can have someone who is absolutely amazing due to her own strengths, but cannot realize them because of the vicious and mean environment around her. One way to deal with this is to strike out at the environment, and I encourage anyone so inclined to give it a shot. They will call you evil things, and you will feel really badly for it. Another way is to reject that environment and build y…

"you can have someone who is absolutely amazing due to her own strengths, but cannot realize them because of the vicious and mean environment around her" Really? Have you seen a case of somebody that had truly amazing, useful strengths and was still somehow being "blocked" from success by the environment as a whole? It sounds like a huge conspiracy to me (the way I rephrased it, of course it might not be what you mea…

Really. I realize you're going on just my word alone, but trust me, it's real. Amazing people who are on the right side of the gap might be cursed in private, but they will get ahead. They will go places which just are not open to others.

Meanwhile, amazing folks on the wrong side of the gap will be cursed in public through a variety of interesting ways, and will be held back unless they find those rare environments where they can thrive.

So really, it's not just a 10 vs. 2 thing. It's a "allowed to be 10" vs. "not allowed to be 10" thing.

Put it this way -- why did the author of the original post really leave Google? Her reasons might be like mine.

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