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Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

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Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#11
post #8
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dangerous questions! This is the world Americans now live in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_McNeil_Jr.#Dismissal_fr...

Incidentally and apropos to the subject at hand, McNeil's apology is a pretty good one: “I was asked at a dinner by a student whether I thought a classmate of hers should have been suspended for a video she had made as a 12-year-old in which she used a racial slur. To understand what was in the video, I asked if she had called someone else the slur or whether she was rapping or quoting a book title. In asking the que…

It's not a good apology. It's a sad surrendering of one's dignity to appease an angry mob.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#12
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use-mention distinction, any nuance and context whatsoever stopped mattering. Some on the left just want to get their "social justice fix" by pressuring to get people fired or shame them for absurd reasons like "cultural appropriation". And then they are surprised why far-right grows in reaction to this. Or maybe not, maybe that was the point of both sides to have an enemy you can fight with for eternity. Horsesh…

I’m guessing you’re not the subject of any slurs. When it comes to slurs, use-mention isn’t nearly as much of a distinction as you think. The mere mention of a slur is enough to bring the painful memories of its use roaring back, whether you want them to or not. Also, it’s just kind of... weird ... to insist on being allowed to say them. Of all the hills to die on, why that one?

> Of all the hills to die on, why that one?

It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced. I say that from a far-left perspective, and as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs. There is a time and place for speech; and certainly in an academic or otherwise serious adult context, any racial slur can be used. If you cannot do so safely, this means that there's not really free speech, and it is a totally fine hill to die on.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m guessing you’re not the subject of any slurs. When it comes to slurs, use-mention isn’t nearly as much of a distinction as you think. The mere mention of a slur is enough to bring the painful memories of its use roaring back, whether you want them to or not. Also, it’s just kind of... weird ... to insist on being allowed to say them. Of all the hills to die on, why that one?

> Of all the hills to die on, why that one? It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced. I say that from a far-left perspective, and as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs. There is a time and place for speech; and certainly in an academic or otherwise serious adult context, any racial slur can be used. If you cannot do so safely, this means that ther…

> It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced.

This particular conversation started with a very old one; regardless, I’m not sure I follow. This claim is in no way self-evident.

> as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs

I’m very sorry to hear that.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of all the hills to die on, why that one? It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced. I say that from a far-left perspective, and as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs. There is a time and place for speech; and certainly in an academic or otherwise serious adult context, any racial slur can be used. If you cannot do so safely, this means that ther…

> It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced. This particular conversation started with a very old one; regardless, I’m not sure I follow. This claim is in no way self-evident. > as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs I’m very sorry to hear that.

> I’m very sorry to hear that.

No need to be sorry, you didn't do anything wrong. If anything, I'm much more hurt by the prospect of a world where taboo words cannot even be discussed about, than a world where random weirdos insult me on the street.

If you want to be sorry about something useful, please make efforts so that taboo words can be used safely, at least when talking about them! Millions of people are learning English every day all over the world. How can you even teach these people about offensive words without mentioning them?

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally and apropos to the subject at hand, McNeil's apology is a pretty good one: “I was asked at a dinner by a student whether I thought a classmate of hers should have been suspended for a video she had made as a 12-year-old in which she used a racial slur. To understand what was in the video, I asked if she had called someone else the slur or whether she was rapping or quoting a book title. In asking the que…

It's not a good apology. It's a sad surrendering of one's dignity to appease an angry mob.

Exactly. Keep up the good fight. The well-intentioned like yosamino are blindly walking off the cliff.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is morally unacceptable that on 2021 there are new taboo words being introduced. This particular conversation started with a very old one; regardless, I’m not sure I follow. This claim is in no way self-evident. > as somebody who has been on the receiving end of ugly ethnic slurs I’m very sorry to hear that.

> I’m very sorry to hear that. No need to be sorry, you didn't do anything wrong. If anything, I'm much more hurt by the prospect of a world where taboo words cannot even be discussed about, than a world where random weirdos insult me on the street. If you want to be sorry about something useful, please make efforts so that taboo words can be used safely, at least when talking about them! Millions of people are learn…

>How can you even teach these people about offensive words without mentioning them?

Isn't this a straw man? Who has objected to teaching people learning English about the existence of the n-word?

We are having a discussion about this taboo word right now and no-one is stopping us.

The problem is the inference from "it may in some special circumstances be necessary to mention the n-word" to "anyone should be free to say the n-word at any time without anyone objecting".

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#17

> On Friday, Bill Maher said the N-word on live television. And that's all the context we get. Not the full sentence, not whether it was part of a joke, I don't even know if the guy who said it was black (though I suppose not, given what follows). How am I supposed to evaluate an apology if I don't know what is being apologized for? And without that evaluation, this example adds nothing to the article. It fails as an…

The use-mention distinction, any nuance and context whatsoever stopped mattering. Some on the left just want to get their "social justice fix" by pressuring to get people fired or shame them for absurd reasons like "cultural appropriation". And then they are surprised why far-right grows in reaction to this. Or maybe not, maybe that was the point of both sides to have an enemy you can fight with for eternity. Horsesh…

Hypothetically, if Bill Maher had refused to apologies he would have been on the fast track to being identified as a member of the alt-right.

It is difficult to assess what "far-right grow[th]" means in a context where far right is defined as a position relative to the beliefs of the far left. It isn't clear who is changing their opinions.

In a sense, given that this would have been unremarkable in the 50s, presumably the only thing the modern far-right has been doing is shrinking.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#18
post #9

> On Friday, Bill Maher said the N-word on live television. And that's all the context we get. Not the full sentence, not whether it was part of a joke, I don't even know if the guy who said it was black (though I suppose not, given what follows). How am I supposed to evaluate an apology if I don't know what is being apologized for? And without that evaluation, this example adds nothing to the article. It fails as an…

What's the difference between saying n-word and the actual word? The concept that symbolises in my head is the same - and so any difference necessarily is to the benefit of the speaker, not the listener.

Huge difference IMHO. Saying the actual word is meant to inflame or diminish. Saying “n-word” is intended to do neither. Both are simply a collection of letters, but they carry a lot of baggage.

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#19
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use-mention distinction, any nuance and context whatsoever stopped mattering. Some on the left just want to get their "social justice fix" by pressuring to get people fired or shame them for absurd reasons like "cultural appropriation". And then they are surprised why far-right grows in reaction to this. Or maybe not, maybe that was the point of both sides to have an enemy you can fight with for eternity. Horsesh…

I’m guessing you’re not the subject of any slurs. When it comes to slurs, use-mention isn’t nearly as much of a distinction as you think. The mere mention of a slur is enough to bring the painful memories of its use roaring back, whether you want them to or not. Also, it’s just kind of... weird ... to insist on being allowed to say them. Of all the hills to die on, why that one?

It seems to me that there is a more diverse spectrum of hurtful words (of which slurs are a subset) than is commonly understood, and where they lie on the spectrum can have different moral implications.

- On the one extreme, there are trigger words peculiar to particular individuals that are not widely known, which also have neutral everyday meanings. It's difficult to fault a person for uttering them.

- Then there are words that are hurtful against particular communities, but their slur status are not widely known and they also have a common neutral meaning.

- There are also words with a widely known slur status but with neutral meanings that are entrenched (e.g. retarded).

- And of course there are words like the n-word that everybody uses for the slur meaning, even when they don't mean to directly offend.

People make everyday words into slurs all the time when they decide to communicate an insult with them. And even among widespread slurs not all slurs trigger hurt to an equal degree; at one extreme when a word is intended as a slur is uttered by a weak person and there is no history of tolerated bigotry associated with the slur, it is typically less effective at hurting.

> I’m guessing you’re not the subject of any slurs. When it comes to slurs, use-mention isn’t nearly as much of a distinction as you think.

Do you suppose if among (black) people who frequently use the n-word to establish closeness, reporting on someone using it as the n-word as a slur would be just as unacceptable as using it directly intending to insult (as improbable as the latter would happen)?

Re: Apology critics who want to teach you how to say you’re sorry (2017)

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a good apology. It's a sad surrendering of one's dignity to appease an angry mob.

Exactly. Keep up the good fight. The well-intentioned like yosamino are blindly walking off the cliff.

You did notice that I specifically commented on the structure of the apology wrt to the contents of the article - not about it's neccessity ?

> good fight.

Good fight for what specifically ?

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