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Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

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11–20 of 48 posts

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#11

I'm a little less than halfway through The Power Broker. It's a riveting read, especially as a New Yorker (quite possibly living in housing built by him!). I suppose I haven't quite gotten to the part where Moses goes full corrupt. From what I've read so far, he seemed utterly vicious, sneaky and deceptive, but also ridiculously competent. Anybody who's had to sit in committees and meetings spinning their wheels, hea…

I just finished The World That Moses Built documentary on Vimeo. It's low quality but the only place I could find it. It's my second time watching. Moses was a fascinating man in a fascinating city. https://vimeo.com/340060890

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#13

I'm a little less than halfway through The Power Broker. It's a riveting read, especially as a New Yorker (quite possibly living in housing built by him!). I suppose I haven't quite gotten to the part where Moses goes full corrupt. From what I've read so far, he seemed utterly vicious, sneaky and deceptive, but also ridiculously competent. Anybody who's had to sit in committees and meetings spinning their wheels, hea…

[deleted]

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is Moses has a compelling story with an interesting clash between his public persona and private demeanor. Zuckerberg, while certainly a good biography subject, doesn't have the same idealist turned corrupt by power story.

I suspect that the bigger difference is that the truth about Moses was probably little known at the time - I think most people know the Zuckerberg story by now.

Perhaps, although Zuckerberg never built Facebook in an attempt to help the public. Even the most hagiographic recounting still acknowledges that Facebook is a profit seeking endeavor. What's so interesting about Moses is the paradox of how someone so arrogant, so elitist indeed, can have done so much for the public.

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the bigger difference is that the truth about Moses was probably little known at the time - I think most people know the Zuckerberg story by now.

Perhaps, although Zuckerberg never built Facebook in an attempt to help the public. Even the most hagiographic recounting still acknowledges that Facebook is a profit seeking endeavor. What's so interesting about Moses is the paradox of how someone so arrogant, so elitist indeed, can have done so much for the public.

For some of the public. But, for example, he deliberately made the overpasses on one of his expressways too low for buses to use, so that only people with cars could get to the beaches. This excluded the poor, and the black were mostly poor.

So "done so much for the public" is... complicated. His elitism and exclusionism was literally cast in concrete.

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, although Zuckerberg never built Facebook in an attempt to help the public. Even the most hagiographic recounting still acknowledges that Facebook is a profit seeking endeavor. What's so interesting about Moses is the paradox of how someone so arrogant, so elitist indeed, can have done so much for the public.

For some of the public. But, for example, he deliberately made the overpasses on one of his expressways too low for buses to use, so that only people with cars could get to the beaches. This excluded the poor, and the black were mostly poor. So "done so much for the public" is... complicated. His elitism and exclusionism was literally cast in concrete.

Agreed. I'm not claiming Moses was necessarily altruistic. But he did something for the public, while I'm not sure Zuckerberg, besides the odd charity work, has anything close to that

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#17
I just posted about The Power Broker and Silicon Valley to my blog: Elon Musk and the Environment https://joshuaspodek.com/elon-musk-and-the-environment. I'll repost it here in case people find it meaningful or relevant.

Many New Yorkers know Robert Moses from Robert Caro’s book The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York, which won every award it could. At over 1,000 oversized pages, I thought I’d browse it at first, but couldn’t put it down.

Robert Moses may have shaped New York City more than any other person, holding multiple offices from the 1920s to the 80s. Residents loved him early in his career when most knew him for creating public parks and reforming crony, corrupt government. Not many drove then and traffic congestion barely existed so people appreciated that he built new roads.

It made sense as highways grew to think a road becoming congested meant that demand exceeded and conclude that adding another lane or road would meet that demand. Today we know that adding roads leads people to adjust and take advantage of uncongested roads. We move, buy more cars, take more trips, and so on until we reattain a level of congestion worth complaining about. In other words, traffic congestion is often an arch problem, where building new roads is like supporting the arch from below. Eventually you reach the road version of “the bureaucracy expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy”—no longer serving people. Increasing roads also brought pollution, split communities, and distanced people.

For decades after people recognized this pattern, Robert Moses held enough political power to keep building roads. His public image suffered. Eventually the public stopped him from building a parking lot in Central Park and highways that would gut Little Italy, Soho, and Greenwich Village. If his original intent had been to serve the public, he had crossed a line to mindless growth and dated ideas whose counterproductive unintended side-effects dwarfed the intended effects.

Elon Musk is today’s Robert Moses. Reversing our environmental course means fewer cars, electric when not reducible. Musk is promoting more cars. He is pursuing growth primarily. The purported solution increases the problem, creating more perception of ruinous demand, though not among those who see the systemic problem he’s exacerbating.

Likewise, most Silicon Valley, Hollywood, and corporate initiatives promote growth first, often including self-aggrandizement for founders and ignoring unintended side-effects, that amount to stepping on the gas, thinking it’s the brake, and wanting congratulations.

A Greenwich Village resident, Jane Jacobs, came to personify the movement who saw that Moses was serving himself, ignoring his work’s actual effects, not his intent. Her book, The Death and Life of Great American Cities, focused on people, what made communities livable and desirable, and how highways in cities did the opposite. Maybe you or I will become her equivalent.

Meanwhile, The Power Broker recounted Moses’s life and career, revealing his drive for growth, power, self-aggrandizement, and contempt for the people he pretended to serve, belying his claims of modesty and service. An enduring legacy results from personal integrity. Moses saw his crumble, as DiCaprio and Gore are seeing theirs, as will Musk if he continues in Moses’s erroneous path to grandeur.

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#19
For those who have read The Power Broker... how do you stand to hold it?

I bought the paper book after reading another one of these threads on HN, but it's so large that it makes my hands sore to hold it (or my neck if I lay it on my lap to read). Since there's no ebook version, I wonder how you all manage to get through a tome like this.

Re: Robert Caro and Kurt Vonnegut interview each other (1999)

#20

For those who have read The Power Broker... how do you stand to hold it? I bought the paper book after reading another one of these threads on HN, but it's so large that it makes my hands sore to hold it (or my neck if I lay it on my lap to read). Since there's no ebook version, I wonder how you all manage to get through a tome like this.

Just rest it on your knee or something. Abandon a bit of decorum for comfort.
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