Live data from Hacker News

Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

washingtonmonthly.com

11–20 of 22 posts

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#11

Unions on both sides of the Atlantic have made huge strategic errors in the last three decades that have eroded much of their influence, relevance and power. Embracing enterprise and entrepreneurs in a deep way would a massive stride forward. I don't see it happening though. Finding a common enemy to unite against is one thing, but the fundamental shift in outlook required to go beyond that is something else altogeth…

Unions on both sides of the Atlantic have made huge strategic errors in the last three decades that have eroded much of their influence, relevance and power.

Probably not strategic errors so much as natural consequences of the fact that the interests of the people running the union at any given time are not quite aligned with the interests of the union.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#12

organized labor IS a monopoly, a monopoly on a company's labor. And having a monopoly on the supply of monopoly's labor supply is the most profitable monopoly of all. so, no, I don't think unions will want an end to monopolies.

And having a monopoly on the supply of monopoly's labor supply is the most profitable monopoly of all

Indeed, and the holy grail of having a monopoly on a monopoly is having a monopoly on government employees. Witness the way the United Auto Workers formed an offshoot, the SEIU, which now dwarfs its parent.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#13
I can not figure out the premises of the conclusion. I can sort of figure out how small businesses could help labor from the article, but on the other fork - what do unions offer a small businessman?

Thought experiment:

If I found a small software firm, I will need an office, a janitor on Fridays, a secretary, a marketer-type, and some engineers. (well, I'm approximating here, YMMV).

As an employer, I want to pay people enough so they stick around. I want to pay just enough to get the quality of people I need, but not so much the company is run into the ground. I don't see that a union helps me. If I pay people badly, they will leave; at least the people I hired, who I assume are generally hire-able and good enough to find jobs elsewhere.

Politically, I don't want to have to add this or that to my company's operation unless it makes me money (e.g., our top performer needs child leave, and him staying with leave is better than him quitting).

So, what does a union get me in my Pnathansoft firm? I am confused. Please take pity on me and explain. :-/

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#14
post #12

organized labor IS a monopoly, a monopoly on a company's labor. And having a monopoly on the supply of monopoly's labor supply is the most profitable monopoly of all. so, no, I don't think unions will want an end to monopolies.

And having a monopoly on the supply of monopoly's labor supply is the most profitable monopoly of all Indeed, and the holy grail of having a monopoly on a monopoly is having a monopoly on government employees. Witness the way the United Auto Workers formed an offshoot, the SEIU, which now dwarfs its parent.

Well, having a union at old Ma Bell or at a monopoly utility was/can be pretty lucrative. And there's never a rate cut. Governments are always fumbling their budgets.

The government unions are so bad because we can't simply decide "well, I'll just write letters." And its easier to build in time bomb benefits. All you have to do is steer union dues and volunteer labor to those that play along.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#15
A lot of people on the left side of the political spectrum are starting to wake up to the fact that many people start startups as Democrats, but quickly become strongly libertarian in their economic views as they come face to face with the realities of government waste, regulation, and corruption.

The Uber and AirBnB founders are unlikely to pull the lever for statists, for example. And this is very dangerous to the progressive movement as startup founders tend to be smartest and most resourceful of their peers. Huge amounts of money has been invested in making sure all college grads mouth fashionable left-of-center slogans on economics, but the movement started by Paul Graham inadvertently threatens to unwind all that.

This article is motivated by that realization and is one (vain) attempt to bring entrepreneurs back into the fold. There are other attempts too, like "Startup America". But in the longer term these efforts are unlkely to succeed as more and more people at early stage companies encounter manifest contradictions between their lived experience and the religion of their birth -- namely progressivism.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#16
After learning a lot of economics, I went from standard coastal American views to incredibly hostile to labor unions. After learning more about political factions of all stripes, I became more sympathetic.

I think labor unions and similar do have some value, but today's versions aren't going to last. They're fundamentally hierarchical, seniority-based organizations and entrepreneurship is usually anti-hierarchical and anti-seniority.

Actually, that's one of the growing trends that no one's talking about yet. This generation is the first one where a very significant minority of people reject hierarchy-driven organizations and refuse to "work their way up." It still comes unnatural to our generation and there's social pressures against it.

But the next generation that grew up as digital natives, a lot more of them are going to reject the hierarchy and strike off on their own. There will still be social pressure against it, but much less so as our generation shows what's possible (and the people who did reject the standard track are doing pretty well).

The generation after that, our kids, I think the standard hierarchy/seniority model will be near dead for them. But still, there's a lot of people in trades that "worked their way up", and they're going to hate this trend.

It should make for interesting times. As for labor unions, they've really got to stop selling out their younger members if they want to survive. The unions keep bargaining off younger members' pay and benefits to protect older members. That ain't sustainable - there's an entire culture shift going against them, though it's really just started to pick up steam the last 5-10 years.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#17
We need a new blend of progressive and libertarian principles that honors the concept of respect for those who work, but does not support the dinosaur ideology of big labor.

Big labor is bad for the same reason big govt and big business are bad -- it exists to exist.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#18

After learning a lot of economics, I went from standard coastal American views to incredibly hostile to labor unions. After learning more about political factions of all stripes, I became more sympathetic. I think labor unions and similar do have some value, but today's versions aren't going to last. They're fundamentally hierarchical, seniority-based organizations and entrepreneurship is usually anti-hierarchical an…

As for labor unions, they've really got to stop selling out their younger members if they want to survive. The unions keep bargaining off younger members' pay and benefits to protect older members. That ain't sustainable

Unions know this but most are between a rock and hard place. When negotiating contracts they can only do it for the people being represented up to that point. Anyone that joins after that contract is signed is on a new, seperate contract. So when a union representative has to bring back the terms to it's members its usually like this, "the company has agreed on the pay scale with us, but any new hires will be on a seperate contract. Do you vote Yay or Nay?" Now each union member has to decide if they will accept the contract as it stands or do they go on strike for some ambiguously defined "future hire".

In fact, this sounds exactly like how our government decides to run its debt. Do we pay it off and take the lumps or push all the hard decisions on ambiguous "future generations"

The fact is people are selfish and unions represent people. Personally, I don't care to join one but I don't get angry at people that do nor do I go postal in chatrooms talking about them.

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#19
post #11

Unions on both sides of the Atlantic have made huge strategic errors in the last three decades that have eroded much of their influence, relevance and power. Embracing enterprise and entrepreneurs in a deep way would a massive stride forward. I don't see it happening though. Finding a common enemy to unite against is one thing, but the fundamental shift in outlook required to go beyond that is something else altogeth…

Unions on both sides of the Atlantic have made huge strategic errors in the last three decades that have eroded much of their influence, relevance and power. Probably not strategic errors so much as natural consequences of the fact that the interests of the people running the union at any given time are not quite aligned with the interests of the union.

Yep, our old friend the Principal-Agent problem strikes again. Misalignment of interests leads to decisions that aren't to the long-term benefit of the organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal-agent_problem

Re: Against the real enemy: why organized labor should join with entrepreneurs

#20
post #4

The author spends a lot of the article wondering about why Big Labor seems to be whiffing so many obvious opportunities (joining with entrepreneurs is the hook but it's really just one special case of the larger point), but the answer is obvious once you drop the theory for a moment and look at the reality: Big Labor leadership is not the same as Big Labor membership. Leadership has long since become its own entity,…

Regarding conflicting interests in the unions: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2599005
Post reply on HN