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Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

theguardian.com

11–20 of 667 posts

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#11
post #3

The UK plan for no ICE vehicles to be sold by 2030 is fairly ambitious. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the roads, but I think some regular customers will be disappointed by how poor the infrastructure is. Not only that electric chargers aren't as prevalent as they need to be, but the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city), but an even bigger problem is the h…

Given that the entire length of Britain is 600 miles, going ICE-free seems almost... easy, compared to the US.

You really don't have the concerns about long-haul trips impacting range. Obviously there are point-charging concerns etc, but that's something you can throw small money at to fix. You don't really need to convince consumers they won't be stranded in the mountains and freeze to death.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#12
I'm really curious to see how the used electric car market shapes up.

New cars (electric or not) are pretty expensive. The average price of a new car in the US just topped $40k, which is out of reach of many car buyers. The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older. Then at some point down the road, those cars end up in the hands of (on average) younger, less-wealthy folks.

But younger folks might not want the same thing as older folks. One niche example is the manual transmission. Looking at a car like the Mazda Miata - something like a third of those are sold new with an automatic transmission. The buyers (again, maybe older) don't want to bother shifting their own gears, so they pay an extra $1k or so for an automatic. But when those cars are affordable used cars, and the market is younger car enthusiasts, Miatas with an automatic transmission are worth quite a bit less. The preferences of the new $30k convertible buyers aren't the same as the preferences of the used $5k convertible buyers, even though those $30k cars eventually become the $5k cars.

With electric cars I wonder if we'll see a similar divide. I know a few people (software engineers who own their own single family homes) who have bought new electric cars. Folks I know from less wealthy walks of life (daycare providers, teachers, grad students, etc) have not bought used electric cars. Surely that's at least partially because used electric cars don't exist in great numbers, but I also wonder if those folks (people who rent, or move often, etc) might be less enamored with a car where they don't know they'll be able to charge it at home, or a depleted battery pack means less range or costly repair, etc.

I'm hoping for an electric future and I want my next car to be electric ... I'm just really curious to see if/when middle- and lower-class Americans start adopting these in large numbers.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#13
post #2

I don't understand how this can happen. An equilibrium seems more likely to me. If massive amounts of people move to electric vehicles gas prices will fall. This will make combustion vehicles more attractive. Also, government depends on all the taxes they put on combustion vehicles. As those revenues decline they may choose to get that money from electric vehicle drivers under the guise of 'congestion' taxes or such.

Gas prices might temporarily fall as there is a very brief over-supply. Then the exact opposite will happen, gasoline will become more expensive as the economies of scale vanishes, refineries shut down permanently (never to be restarted, and no new refineries will be built), the market demand continues to dwindle, and on the cycle goes. Gasoline ends up as a largely niche fuel many decades out. And that's before we g…

Gasoline is (something like) 20% of refinery outputs. I think a lot of that is coming out of upgraders, so there can be quite a decline in output before there's not enough gasoline refiners for there to be price competition.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp_refp2_dc_nus_mbbl_m.htm

(the upgrading part matters because they can shift their production around a lot more than if they are just fractioning the crude)

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#14
post #2

I don't understand how this can happen. An equilibrium seems more likely to me. If massive amounts of people move to electric vehicles gas prices will fall. This will make combustion vehicles more attractive. Also, government depends on all the taxes they put on combustion vehicles. As those revenues decline they may choose to get that money from electric vehicle drivers under the guise of 'congestion' taxes or such.

Gas taxes set a floor for how low prices can go. They'll probably increase as gas motor cars are phased out before the process ever sink too low.

In Washington, US, they increased the registration fee for electrics to make up for the shortfall in gas taxes that pay for road wear, congestion, etc. So that's already happening.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#15
I just got a Renault Zoe 2020 last December and it's been great. Commuting to work and going to the shops is just as comfortable as with a combustion engine. No gas station visits and even with the high cost of electricity in Germany (0,3€/kWh) it's still worth it. Only when driving longer distances (>250km) you need to plan ahead for charging and trips take longer (1-3 hours).

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments certainly have the power to screw things up, but also to accelerate things. If electrics take over so much of the market that gasoline gets super cheap, there won't be that much political resistance to a carbon price on gasoline, since most people are driving electrics anyway. Besides that, it's not all about fuel costs. Electric vehicles are fun, and generally low-maintenance.

>there won't be that much political resistance to a carbon price on gasoline, since most people are driving electrics anyway. So long as screwing people too poor to justify a new or new-ish car is politically unacceptable there will be some resistance. Cars from the early '00s are still on the road. It's gonna take another ~20yr for the fleet to turn over organically.

In the US there was a "cash for clunkers" program about 10-15 years ago that tried to clear out ineficient older model cars. It was fairly successful and stimulated purchases of newer cars. The downside was that some perfectly fine cars were scrapped.

I suspect that gas stations will start swapping pumps for chargers, and that will motivate people to switch too.

By the time this all happens though we will have more car sharing programs and maybe autonomous vehicles, so the ownership paradigm will be different in 2030 compared to now. Why buy a car that sits idle for 90% of the day?

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#18

I'm really curious to see how the used electric car market shapes up. New cars (electric or not) are pretty expensive. The average price of a new car in the US just topped $40k, which is out of reach of many car buyers. The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older. Then at some point down the road, those cars end up in the hands of (on average) younger, less-wealthy folks. But younger fol…

$10,000 buys a pretty good used ICE vehicle. How many decent electric vehicles are selling used for that price?

The lower ongoing costs of electric can justify a higher upfront price, but then you are paying more up front.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#19

I'm really curious to see how the used electric car market shapes up. New cars (electric or not) are pretty expensive. The average price of a new car in the US just topped $40k, which is out of reach of many car buyers. The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older. Then at some point down the road, those cars end up in the hands of (on average) younger, less-wealthy folks. But younger fol…

> The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older.

One might think this to be the case, but the breakdown of new car buyers shows about the same % of buyers make 100k (roughly 1/3rd in each cohort, but varies based on vehicle type). Sadly, many of those buyers will take out out a 72-84mo loan that they probably can't afford in order to pay for that new car.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#20

I'm really curious to see how the used electric car market shapes up. New cars (electric or not) are pretty expensive. The average price of a new car in the US just topped $40k, which is out of reach of many car buyers. The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older. Then at some point down the road, those cars end up in the hands of (on average) younger, less-wealthy folks. But younger fol…

>a depleted battery pack means less range or costly repair, etc.

This has actually stopped me from buying a used EV in the last year, twice. Dealers aren't up front about used cars history in general, and, again from just the two I looked at, they are 1000% hiding any information they can regarding the battery packs.

This is the largest hurdle to the used car market (after the shortage of used EV's because of their novelty). People hesitate to buy used combustion cars, because of unknown mechanical issues that may pop up; but this can be alleviated by using a trusted mechanic to once-over the car. They ABSOLUTELY hesitate to buy used EV's because of the battery packs, and who can you go to in order to evaluate that? Nobody.

>I'm just really curious to see if/when middle- and lower-class Americans start adopting these in large numbers.

When they have no choice. I'm in this boat - I work in education and my spouse works in education. We are solidly middle- to lower-middle class. We can't afford most new cars. Used cars are pricey anymore as well. The only way we will upgrade to an EV is if we can find a trustworthy used model, or when we have no choice, because gas is $10/gallon.

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