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An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

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Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#11

Post by dogma1138 »

thedudeabides5 wrote: post #5

At home kits have been admitted to courts in California. The tweets claiming these kits are inadmissible is false. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/04/9727395/rape-kit-at... A judge determines what's admissible in a court of law. That's why your texts, social media posts, etc are all admissable. The companies in this space are not trying to fool anyone into not going into the hospital. They are trying to help se…

There is no way that these would work in the long term without chain of custody, even if some judge would approve the admission of these it would definitely lead and an appeal and there is no way the higher courts would uphold the tests, keep in mind that at home DNA kits are not even admissible in custody / paternal hearings if they are employed in a state that only require the consent of a single parent then at best they can only be used as a justification for a court ordered test.

At home rape kits is a recipe for disaster for rape victims and the legal system.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#12

Post by glaive123 »

thedudeabides5 wrote: post #5

At home kits have been admitted to courts in California. The tweets claiming these kits are inadmissible is false. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/04/9727395/rape-kit-at... A judge determines what's admissible in a court of law. That's why your texts, social media posts, etc are all admissable. The companies in this space are not trying to fool anyone into not going into the hospital. They are trying to help se…

It appears that if they are persevering despite putting countless rape victims at risk, they might have bad intentions.

From the same article you posted:

> Defense attorneys worry that allowing victims to conduct their own rape exams could result in cross-contamination and raise issues of reasonable doubt. “If you want to frame someone, it’s easy to get their DNA onto a swab where you do a sex assault kit, and say, ‘Oh, look, here’s their DNA,’” criminal defense attorney Mark Reichel told the AP. Since they first hit the market last year, there has been a push to ban DIY kits for reasons like this.

Also from the article you posted:

> Northern California has issued a temporary order allowing rape kits to be collected by the survivor, at home, while a nurse walks them through the process via video call

It appears this is temporary.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#13

Post by toomuchtodo »

underseacables wrote: post #2

Rather than a “rape kit start up,” which is a really awful phrase to use, why don’t we process all of the backlog rape kits that are sitting in the evidence lockers across the country, first.

http://www.endthebacklog.org

Founded by Mariska Hargitay of “Law and Order: SVU” fame.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#14

Post by oh_sigh »

underseacables wrote: post #2

Rather than a “rape kit start up,” which is a really awful phrase to use, why don’t we process all of the backlog rape kits that are sitting in the evidence lockers across the country, first.

Because the startup is basically just a few people who believe in the idea, whereas the backlog of rape kids is a problem distributed over the entire country through the institutional neglect of thousands of people?

If the two people who founded this startup were going to take your advice - how would they do it? Just send a check to crime labs all over the country and hope they process the kit? Start a letter writing campaign?

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#15

Post by knowthevibes »

Immoral to give survivors options other than the largely unused hospital and law enforcement processes? Any sexual assault counselor should know that survivors most often do not want to be re-traumatized through being physically manipulated by another individual. If COVID-19 has shown us anything, it is that remote options ARE feasible. Self-use kits were used in Monterey and Marin counties in California out of necessity (https://www.ksbw.com/article/monterey-county-das-office-allo...), and necessity breeds widely used innovation. It would make sense to die on this hill if the current system was survivor-centric. But it is not. You’re putting far too much faith in a system built to reflect and serve the interests of law enforcement and hospitals, not the needs of survivors. Moreover, further research will show you that the startup explicitly encourages survivors to visit a hospital or contact law enforcement if at all possible. Not only is your information outdated, but it is also misleading. Try keeping your personal value statements (and your baseless interpretation of criminal law?) out of the conversation. Ask sexual assault survivors what they would like to see instead.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#16

Post by dogma1138 »

jj345 wrote: post #10
thedudeabides5 wrote: post #5

At home kits have been admitted to courts in California. The tweets claiming these kits are inadmissible is false. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/04/9727395/rape-kit-at... A judge determines what's admissible in a court of law. That's why your texts, social media posts, etc are all admissable. The companies in this space are not trying to fool anyone into not going into the hospital. They are trying to help se…

Lawyer confirming this. Best and well known example of similar evidence would be Monica Lewinsky’s black gap dress.

With Monica’s famous dress CoC isn’t an issue because the CoC of the dress once submitted can be preserved anything before that isn’t important because if it is semen and it’s Bills then Bill needs to have a plausible explanation on how it got onto the dress in a manner that didn’t involve the stroking of his cigar.

With these kits there is no way to validate that the evidence was actually collected from the victim and not from say a toothbrush.

Monica’s dress in this case is well the victims vagina or any other body part that was assaulted and may contain DNA evidence of the assailant not the kit.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#17

Post by decker »

thedudeabides5 wrote: post #5

At home kits have been admitted to courts in California. The tweets claiming these kits are inadmissible is false. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/04/9727395/rape-kit-at... A judge determines what's admissible in a court of law. That's why your texts, social media posts, etc are all admissable. The companies in this space are not trying to fool anyone into not going into the hospital. They are trying to help se…

The article doesn't say anything about the sample being admitted in a CA court, it only quotes a DA being supportive of the home test kit.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#18

Post by toomuchtodo »

oh_sigh wrote: post #14
underseacables wrote: post #2

Rather than a “rape kit start up,” which is a really awful phrase to use, why don’t we process all of the backlog rape kits that are sitting in the evidence lockers across the country, first.

Because the startup is basically just a few people who believe in the idea, whereas the backlog of rape kids is a problem distributed over the entire country through the institutional neglect of thousands of people? If the two people who founded this startup were going to take your advice - how would they do it? Just send a check to crime labs all over the country and hope they process the kit? Start a letter writing…

Doing it as a startup means you’re out of touch, don’t appreciate the scale of the problem and the work involved, and the risk you put survivors in of not being able to get justice.

This is a policy and legal challenge, not a business.

Re: An Immoral, DIY Rape Kit Startup

#19

Post by glaive123 »

knowthevibes wrote: post #15

Immoral to give survivors options other than the largely unused hospital and law enforcement processes? Any sexual assault counselor should know that survivors most often do not want to be re-traumatized through being physically manipulated by another individual. If COVID-19 has shown us anything, it is that remote options ARE feasible. Self-use kits were used in Monterey and Marin counties in California out of neces…

It's interesting to see the only comments defending this startup are from newly created accounts.

The article you shared appears to conflict with what this startup is offering.

> It's being called a "temporary protocol" that so far, has only been used once on April 5. Nassoura said the process starts by the victim calling law enforcement and then, "The officer goes to the victim's residence, places it (the sexual assault test) on the front door step, waits in the vehicle. The victim then goes to the front door gets the sample and they begin a zoom video call." That zoom video call involves a forensic nurse, the detective and a victim advocate. Once the victim's statement is taken by the officer, the nurse is the only one that remains on the call. The victim then self-collects the sample under the nurse's guidance and direction.

And to your point:

> Moreover, further research will show you that the startup explicitly encourages survivors to visit a hospital or contact law enforcement if at all possible.

The problem is, this startup's business model specifically relies on victims not visiting the hospital.

> Ask sexual assault survivors what they would like to see instead.

They would probably want their evidence to be admitted in court, rather than raise reasonable doubt.

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