China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#11

Post by DaedPsyker » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

xster wrote: post #3

Is it me or there's some cognitive dissonance going on with the whole article discussing the ramifications of a nationalization without describing at all what sourced this "news" in the first place? A cursory search seems to show this is a regurgitation on a sourceless Radio Free Asia article ( https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/alibaba-probe-1225202... ) from December?

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#12

Post by xiphias2 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

rootsudo wrote: post #4

Wow. This, alongside Jack Ma being "missing", is really curious. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/jack-ma-missing-232138645.... Best, semi-legit source I can find, there's other news postings, but from more tabloid and sources that aren't as sincere as Yahoo Financial News. Which, itself is curious, because CNBC spins it differently: " https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l... " Which also fall…

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

Isn't that overton window closing though?

Twitter, Facebook and Apple is doing the same thing at the same time with the US president means that US control is getting more centralized over time, which makes sense with the FED's money printing going on.

The real question is why this wouldn't be able to happen in the US in 10 years.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#13

Post by razius » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #10

I was thinking about nationalization separately from this. The west has invested a lot into the Chinese economy hoping to translate the corresponding equity into growth. I wonder if the Chinese are really long term interested in honoring the equity. Meaning - take the money now, grow the businesses and the economy and then at some point say "It's stupid that we're letting foreigners have 20% (or whatever) ownership o…

[dead]

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#14

Post by cbozeman » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

rootsudo wrote: post #4

Wow. This, alongside Jack Ma being "missing", is really curious. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/jack-ma-missing-232138645.... Best, semi-legit source I can find, there's other news postings, but from more tabloid and sources that aren't as sincere as Yahoo Financial News. Which, itself is curious, because CNBC spins it differently: " https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l... " Which also fall…

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

> Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is?

Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually.

I see Jack Ma as a sort of Chinese Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Shooting yourself in the foot like this seems to be incredibly stupid. American government officials would never consider even hobbling someone like Jeff Bezos... that could be partially out of fear (he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution), but its more because of the incredible value someone like a Bezos, Musk, or Ma brings to your economy.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#15

Post by whimsicalism » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

DaedPsyker wrote: post #11

xster wrote: post #3

Is it me or there's some cognitive dissonance going on with the whole article discussing the ramifications of a nationalization without describing at all what sourced this "news" in the first place? A cursory search seems to show this is a regurgitation on a sourceless Radio Free Asia article ( https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/alibaba-probe-1225202... ) from December?

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

Shitty reporting is not always the CCPs fault.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#16

Post by mc32 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

rootsudo wrote: post #4

Wow. This, alongside Jack Ma being "missing", is really curious. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/jack-ma-missing-232138645.... Best, semi-legit source I can find, there's other news postings, but from more tabloid and sources that aren't as sincere as Yahoo Financial News. Which, itself is curious, because CNBC spins it differently: " https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l... " Which also fall…

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

I think Bribery in China is like the book/film the firm with regard to “having the goods” for blackmail or in this case Control of party officials via corruption.

They look bribery the other way the great majority of the time. Everyone does it, but when they want you, they have air tight, iron clad evidence against you and everyone they need to take down.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#17

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #14

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

> Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually. I see Jack Ma as a sort of Chinese Elon Musk…

[deleted]

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#18

Post by rootsudo » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

rootsudo wrote: post #4

Wow. This, alongside Jack Ma being "missing", is really curious. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/jack-ma-missing-232138645.... Best, semi-legit source I can find, there's other news postings, but from more tabloid and sources that aren't as sincere as Yahoo Financial News. Which, itself is curious, because CNBC spins it differently: " https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l... " Which also fall…

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

You're right, but also, it's quite compelling news how you think change is coming - yet it doesn't and it falls back under the old ways.

I did kind of imagine that, yes, Jack Ma and CCP would be a bit different, but hey, goes to show that CCP still has all the power in China.

Makes you wonder about other power vacuums in the world.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#19

Post by gruez » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #10

I was thinking about nationalization separately from this. The west has invested a lot into the Chinese economy hoping to translate the corresponding equity into growth. I wonder if the Chinese are really long term interested in honoring the equity. Meaning - take the money now, grow the businesses and the economy and then at some point say "It's stupid that we're letting foreigners have 20% (or whatever) ownership o…

>Obviously it will prevent future foreign investment but if China is in a place where they don't care about that, it would be the move.

In that case the state can still get sued. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukos_shareholders_v._Russia As for actual compensation to the shareholders, it can range between money seized from foreign accounts (think US treasuries) to sanctions.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#20

Post by whimsicalism » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #14

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

> Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? Yes, I did actually. There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights. Stagnation is likely as good as it'll get and there's every reason to believe it'll be run into the ground eventually. I see Jack Ma as a sort of Chinese Elon Musk…

> There's every reason to believe that the people installed to run Alibaba / Ant after Jack gets sent off to "re-education camp" will be unable to propel it to further heights.

We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West.

> that could be partially out of fear (he could literally just liquidate a portion of his wealth and have someone else elected in your place through campaign contribution), but its more because of the incredible value someone like a Bezos, Musk, or Ma brings to your economy.

I think it is actually much more about the former than the latter.