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Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

tosdr.org

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Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#11

Post by rdpintqogeogsaa »

castorp wrote: post #3

Ages ago I installed a shareware product. And it also had a scrollable "terms and condition" screen (about 2 pages long) when starting it for the first time. When you clicked the "I Agree" button too quickly it would ask you "Do you really agree to the terms you read in only 0.76 seconds?"

If there is an acceptance screen anyway, is there a reason not to tie this to actually reading the terms? Please consider the following idea:

The installer presents the end-user license agreement (EULA). Immediately following it, it presents a multiple-choice quiz that asks questions about core parts of the EULA, such as permissible use, cancellation, refunds, jurisdiction/arbitration.

The installer then contains all the files to be installed. They are encrypted with a key that is composed of a hash value of the correct answers to the above quiz.

In this way, you could tie together whether someone reads the EULA with the possibility of performing the installation at all. This, in turn, causes successful installation to act as implicit proof of having read the terms. The order of the values must be randomized to prevent transmission of correct answers by index number only.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#12

Post by mkl95 »

gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

It should be fairly easy to do this with something like Hotjar. Although I'm not sure if it is legally feasible to do it without the user's consent, especially in Europe.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#13

Post by forgingahead »

It's all farcical, but it's pervasive because of the lawyers I guess. Even a supposedly design-first-consumer-friendly company like Apple has walls of tiny text to scroll through.

If only Terms of Services could be upgraded to:

1. A simple, plain English/local language explanation in bullet points of what the software will be doing. Like how you would explain it to your parents.

2. A link to the legalese, so that covers the legal requirements?

If I recall correctly, Stripe is one company whereby the Terms of Service tries to explain things to you clearly. That's certainly a start, but this would be an interesting thing to improve on and solve. Maybe a GPT-2/GPT-3 application? Tell me simply what this block of text means?

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#14

Post by faeyanpiraat »

rdpintqogeogsaa wrote: post #11
castorp wrote: post #3

Ages ago I installed a shareware product. And it also had a scrollable "terms and condition" screen (about 2 pages long) when starting it for the first time. When you clicked the "I Agree" button too quickly it would ask you "Do you really agree to the terms you read in only 0.76 seconds?"

If there is an acceptance screen anyway, is there a reason not to tie this to actually reading the terms? Please consider the following idea: The installer presents the end-user license agreement (EULA). Immediately following it, it presents a multiple-choice quiz that asks questions about core parts of the EULA, such as permissible use, cancellation, refunds, jurisdiction/arbitration. The installer then contains all…

Let me try translating this into a different scenario:

You are at home, and want to go shopping.

Your door only lets you out if you correctly answer some questions about the most recent changes in the law of your state.

Are you not a lawyer? Well tough luck, order your groceries trough Amazon then..

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#15

Post by noname120 »

Previous discussions:

– https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15031020 (2017)

– https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9678357 (2015)

– https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394144 (2014)

– https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5888393 (2013)

– https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4350907 (2012)

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#16

Post by faeyanpiraat »

stunt wrote: post #10

I think we need some universal standards for ToS. The same way we have some visual rating signs for movies and video games. Most of it should be regular and easy to categories. And there should be a separate rating for how many irregular terms are in there.

Yes, this is great. Similar to how app permissions work on iOs.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#17

Post by itronitron »

ourmandave wrote: post #5

Then the second biggest lie is: We use cookies to give you the best experience on our website. If you continue to use this site we will assume you are happy with it. [Ok] [No] [Privacy Policy] Actual text from the www.gdpr.eu cookie consent pop-up. =)

I always thought "We value your privacy" was the biggest lie on the internet.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#18

Post by II2II »

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document.

If blindly signing a contract one of the first things that computer science students encounter, I'm not surprised that they simply put up those ToS without the expectation that they will be read.

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#19

Post by phonon »

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #14
rdpintqogeogsaa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is an acceptance screen anyway, is there a reason not to tie this to actually reading the terms? Please consider the following idea: The installer presents the end-user license agreement (EULA). Immediately following it, it presents a multiple-choice quiz that asks questions about core parts of the EULA, such as permissible use, cancellation, refunds, jurisdiction/arbitration. The installer then contains all…

Let me try translating this into a different scenario: You are at home, and want to go shopping. Your door only lets you out if you correctly answer some questions about the most recent changes in the law of your state. Are you not a lawyer? Well tough luck, order your groceries trough Amazon then..

“The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.”

― Philip K. Dick, Ubik

Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read

#20

Post by [deleted] »

stunt wrote: post #8
gorgoiler wrote: post #6

If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…

Yes, as long as they make it a required step. It's your fault if you choose to not read it.

[deleted]
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