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Software Is Drowning the World

jamesabley.com

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Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#11

Post by pdimitar »

bsenftner wrote: post #4

I think a real issue we developers face is the management and client attitude that software does not require maintenance. Time and time again, the fact that our completed projects require maintenance or they simply fail with newer systems is greeted with shock, debate and accusation of deceit.

Yes. IMO that's the root of the issue. If there was an incentive to invest in what the OP advocates for, it would have received a military level of funding and attention decades ago.

Problem is, most people are under the illusion that software is like a woodwork or metalwork gadget: you make it once and it can work happily for 10 years without changes. Which is an extra funny thing to believe in because it doesn't apply to those physical gadgets either.

It seems people just want things to be created once and used infinite amount of times and even if I can relate to that desire, it's simply not the universe we are living in.

And in spite of countless evidence to the contrary, it's still an extremely persistent illusion that creates untold amounts of friction between shareholders and programmers every day.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#12

Post by diroussel »

stupidcar wrote: post #2

Things break down and things eventually need to be replaced. This has been a fact of life since time immemorial. I do tire of programmers acting as if the necessity of maintenance is some novel and unexpected problem, unique to software development, presented with hyperbolic titles like "software is drowning the world". Is physical infrastructure "drowning the world" because it needs to be maintained?

This posing of the problem is not the interesting part of the article. It’s the proposed solution that should be discussed.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#14

Post by diroussel »

bsenftner wrote: post #4

I think a real issue we developers face is the management and client attitude that software does not require maintenance. Time and time again, the fact that our completed projects require maintenance or they simply fail with newer systems is greeted with shock, debate and accusation of deceit.

Most clients I’ve worked for are fully aware of this and want maintenance contracts in place to support systems before go live. Of course that doesn’t mean they are happy to spend even more it upgrade systems later.

But what the author is proposing would automate and reduce the cost of the support. A company that could achieve this cost saving and market or successful would have an advantage. Unfortunately it is a very hard problem abs many upgrade transformations can’t be proved to be correct with good automated tests. And then you have the problem of how do you automated the maintenance of the tests.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#15

Post by paulryanrogers »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #9
stupidcar wrote: post #2

Things break down and things eventually need to be replaced. This has been a fact of life since time immemorial. I do tire of programmers acting as if the necessity of maintenance is some novel and unexpected problem, unique to software development, presented with hyperbolic titles like "software is drowning the world". Is physical infrastructure "drowning the world" because it needs to be maintained?

> Things break down and things eventually need to be replaced. This has been a fact of life since time immemorial. That sounds a bit broad. In the general aviation world, engine designs from the 60's are still in widespread use.

> That sounds a bit broad. In the general aviation world, engine designs from the 60's are still in widespread use.

As is leaded fuel, to the delight off everyone living within a few miles of airports. Old can be good, until it's not anymore. There's often survivorship bias involved as the worst--or unadaptable--designs have naturally fallen out of use or been supplanted.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#16

Post by Icathian »

pdimitar wrote: post #11
bsenftner wrote: post #4

I think a real issue we developers face is the management and client attitude that software does not require maintenance. Time and time again, the fact that our completed projects require maintenance or they simply fail with newer systems is greeted with shock, debate and accusation of deceit.

Yes. IMO that's the root of the issue. If there was an incentive to invest in what the OP advocates for, it would have received a military level of funding and attention decades ago. Problem is, most people are under the illusion that software is like a woodwork or metalwork gadget: you make it once and it can work happily for 10 years without changes. Which is an extra funny thing to believe in because it doesn't ap…

I think I see it slightly differently. People have a shifting baseline of expectation around software that isn't present in "traditional" tools. The hammer you inherited from your grandfather still does what it did the day it was made, and so do ls and grep. It absolutely does not hammer nails at 10000x the speed while talking to every new kind of hammer made around the world, but somehow software is expected to gain that ability without any additional effort.

I don't really have a solution for this, I think tech consumers/clients are just always going to want what they want and not care so much about what it takes to make it happen. Thus they will always be surprised and grumble about the price. That just seems like human nature to me.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#17

Post by nlitened »

brody_hamer wrote: post #6

Totally agree. If the new version of a library requires a slightly updated usage; please just give me simple examples of how to update my code. Include a simple regex. And while we’re are it, let’s standardize how we provide those upgrade scripts. So when snyk tells me there’s and issue, it also easy to find and apply the necessary code changes (at least for the simplest 90% of cases). Like python’s “2to3”. It’s not…

How about something new: release only backward-compatible updates unless absolutely necessary.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#18

Post by gchamonlive »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #9
stupidcar wrote: post #2

Things break down and things eventually need to be replaced. This has been a fact of life since time immemorial. I do tire of programmers acting as if the necessity of maintenance is some novel and unexpected problem, unique to software development, presented with hyperbolic titles like "software is drowning the world". Is physical infrastructure "drowning the world" because it needs to be maintained?

> Things break down and things eventually need to be replaced. This has been a fact of life since time immemorial. That sounds a bit broad. In the general aviation world, engine designs from the 60's are still in widespread use.

He is talking about the second law of thermodynamics in realised designs.

You can use designs from the 60s today and the result will be a brand new system that in time will rot away and need to be replaced by, possibly the same design. That doesn't invalidate what he is talking about.

Even the pyramids of Giza will eventually rot away given time.

The difference in software, in my opinion, is speed in which change occurs.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#19

Post by pdimitar »

diroussel wrote: post #14
bsenftner wrote: post #4

I think a real issue we developers face is the management and client attitude that software does not require maintenance. Time and time again, the fact that our completed projects require maintenance or they simply fail with newer systems is greeted with shock, debate and accusation of deceit.

Most clients I’ve worked for are fully aware of this and want maintenance contracts in place to support systems before go live. Of course that doesn’t mean they are happy to spend even more it upgrade systems later. But what the author is proposing would automate and reduce the cost of the support. A company that could achieve this cost saving and market or successful would have an advantage. Unfortunately it is a ve…

But that's just the problem: programmers don't want to pay for such a tool. I personally see it as a part of my work and having to pay for that feels like microtransactions in a game to me.

So not sure how such a thing could be monetised properly. Likely by only offering enterprise-grade services: the tool itself is free, the customer's programmers could employ it to achieve migration but the customer prefers to outsource the cost. Sort of how several Linuxes are free but come with paid support contracts.

Re: Software Is Drowning the World

#20

Post by gchamonlive »

I think computation is still converging. It is too new to be expected to abide to universal standards. Cars, for instance have been around for over a century and they are still subject to change in standards, mainly because of safety and efficiency, just like software, but to a different degree.

We should, however, have these kinds of discussion because I don't think we should outsource this debate to corporations. But this shouldn't take the tone of contempt and resentment towards what we already have.

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