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Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

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Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#11

Post by slothtrop »

jodrellblank wrote: post #8
pazimzadeh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, this is a good point.

I downvoted because by the HN guidelines comments should try to be curious and interesting and because “ Please don't post shallow dismissals ”. The abstract mentions that diet affects gut microbiome and that gut microbiome has a “shaping effect” on psychiatric disorders: > “ A growing body of literature shows that the gut microbiome plays a shaping role in a variety of psychiatric disorders, including major depressi…

It's certainly shallow, but not explicitly a dismissal. It doesn't contradict the OP.

That's just the closest rule cited as there isn't one that merely explicitly states "don't post unsubstantial fluff". Maybe there should be.

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#14

Post by tasty_freeze »

pazimzadeh wrote: post #4
tus88 wrote: post #2

Maybe depressed people eat a lot of junk food.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, this is a good point.

Imagine a HN link to a paper which summarizes various other studies for the causes of failures in auto navigation systems. Dozens of studies are cited, which covers areas such as incomplete testing due to schedule pressures, not adhering to coding guidelines for safety, lack of redundancy or self checking mechanisms, hardware failure, unanticipated overruns of scheduler time budgets due to a confluence of exceptions, etc.

Next, imagine someone leaves a comment which leaves the impression they didn't read the paper, only the title, and said, "Maybe they use too many GOTOs."

Finally, imagine someone saying, "Not sure why you are getting downvoted, this is a good point."

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#15

Post by slothtrop »

xll64 wrote: post #12

It seems that microbiome research is always defended here. Perhaps it is scientific, but be aware that a multi billion dollar industry depends on "improving" the microbiome. Here's an ad in nature.com: https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473-019-00336-9

I wouldn't necessarily equivocate all of that research. Very little of it, even in the realm of dietary impact, has to do with probiotics, and the research that does focus on probiotics largely doesn't suggest a lasting impact on the microbiome.

Notwithstanding that there may be health benefits to probiotic consumption.

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#16

Post by im3w1l »

xll64 wrote: post #12

It seems that microbiome research is always defended here. Perhaps it is scientific, but be aware that a multi billion dollar industry depends on "improving" the microbiome. Here's an ad in nature.com: https://www.nature.com/articles/d42473-019-00336-9

The other year they were saying autism was related to the microbiome. That got too-good-to-be-true alarm bells ringing in my head for sure.

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#17

Post by im3w1l »

tus88 wrote: post #2

Maybe depressed people eat a lot of junk food.

I agree, and since sibling comments request more specific criticism here goes.

Let's look at section "Gut Microbiome Can Transfer Depression". They cite two animal studies. Two. Animal. One of them find their sucrose preference changes. This is dietary preference change. That bacteria changes dietary preferences is well established and we don't need to invoke depression to explain it. What about the other? "The forced swim test led to conflicting outcomes; the study in mice found an increased immobility time, associated with depressive-like behavior, whereas the rat study found no difference." Flimsy, flimsy, flimsy.

Until stronger evidence merge, I agree the most likely explanation is that depressed people eat junk food to comfort themselves, or because they are too depressed to give a shit what they do to their bodies.

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#19

Post by kelsolaar »

taurath wrote: post #13

Any thought on imalanced microbiome being a second order effect rather than a cause? I’d guess continued stress responses from the nervous system could cause chronic gut problems

Which could then induce depressive disorder and thus some sort of feedback loop?

Re: Unraveling the role of the microbiome in major depressive disorder

#20

Post by timy2shoes »

im3w1l wrote: post #17
tus88 wrote: post #2

Maybe depressed people eat a lot of junk food.

I agree, and since sibling comments request more specific criticism here goes. Let's look at section "Gut Microbiome Can Transfer Depression". They cite two animal studies. Two. Animal. One of them find their sucrose preference changes. This is dietary preference change. That bacteria changes dietary preferences is well established and we don't need to invoke depression to explain it. What about the other? "The force…

Exactly. It's difficult to make causal claims from observational data, and made worse by the constant flood of causal claims coming out of microbiome labs. At best there's anecdotal evidence, at worst researchers are peddling snake-oil.

And to clarify, I have worked on microbiome research. The whole field is a mess.

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