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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

nature.com

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Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#11

Post by gjulianm »

bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

A lot of them leave. A lot of them stay because they think the effort will be worth it when they have a better position.

It's also important to note that people who want stay in academia tend to do it because they love research. It doesn't pay more, it's harder, it's more unstable... So a lot of them will enter knowing already they're going to be facing a lot of difficulty and stress.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#12

Post by throwaway67853 »

IMHO the big problem in experimental sciences is what the article kindly describes as power imbalances. I'd call it perhaps neofeudalism.

I've seen many cases where principal investigators / professors are completely disconnected from research, including an absolute lack of any basic knowledge related to the field. They are just middlemen. For someone coming from pure mathematics, where professors routinely come up with great results themselves, this was incredibly shocking.

Those I've met who don't know much always run the same scheme. They have a few postdocs doing all work and writing all grant proposals, but never getting their names on them. They always work towards some vague promotion that never comes. Whenever they obtain any good result, the professor or principal investigator will take all credit. Usually they will get diluted quickly, by simply pushing follow up experiments to others.

Bell Labs, MRC LMB and Cold Spring Harbor were somewhat successful in preventing this kind of middlemen behavior. Among other things, they banned anyone from supervising more than 5 people. It worked.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#13

Post by aaronblohowiak »

gjulianm wrote: post #11
bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

A lot of them leave. A lot of them stay because they think the effort will be worth it when they have a better position. It's also important to note that people who want stay in academia tend to do it because they love research. It doesn't pay more, it's harder, it's more unstable... So a lot of them will enter knowing already they're going to be facing a lot of difficulty and stress.

There are more industry roles than academic roles for people with phds but there are FAR FAR FAR fewer research roles in industry than there are in academia and in some fields academic postdocs (or in some cases there are industry post docs) are required for even industry research positions! You can always off-ramp from research but very very hard to get back into if you do. Which is all to say the PI grant writing postdoc + grad student “exploitation” complex is reaffirmed from within and without. Like many self-reinforcing systems, change is... hard.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#14

Post by flobosg »

chrisseaton wrote: post #9
flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

> If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. Can't you go into industry? You'll have a PhD + more papers done along the way in your postdoc.

Yes, of course one can do that and it’s probably the most reasonable strategy (as opposed to another postdoc, for example). But then, what was the point of the postdoc? I’d rather move earlier into industry. It’s ultimately a gamble.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#15

Post by throwaway2245 »

krastanov wrote: post #5
ebg13 wrote: post #2

Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don't care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling "LA LA LA LA" as loud as possible. Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn't vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities co…

I can easily agree with part of what you are saying, but the fatalistic exaggerated tone of your claims makes it rather hard to start a constructive discussion and definitely does not prompt people to discuss how things can improve.

> definitely does not prompt people to discuss how things can improve

One problem is there is plenty of discussion and no action to address the problems of the parent comment.

It's difficult to understand what action is possible, since the people holding the power to change the system are highly motivated to keep it as it is. But of course, we can discuss this all day.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#16

Post by chrisseaton »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #13
gjulianm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of them leave. A lot of them stay because they think the effort will be worth it when they have a better position. It's also important to note that people who want stay in academia tend to do it because they love research. It doesn't pay more, it's harder, it's more unstable... So a lot of them will enter knowing already they're going to be facing a lot of difficulty and stress.

There are more industry roles than academic roles for people with phds but there are FAR FAR FAR fewer research roles in industry than there are in academia and in some fields academic postdocs (or in some cases there are industry post docs) are required for even industry research positions! You can always off-ramp from research but very very hard to get back into if you do. Which is all to say the PI grant writing p…

> there are FAR FAR FAR fewer research roles in industry than there are in academia

I'm not sure this is true. How many PhDs does Google alone employ in research roles? Many hundreds I'd guess. That's many many many university faculties. And that's just Google. Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Oracle, etc etc out into the long tail.

We're both just guessing but I'd reckon there are far more research roles in industry than academia.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#17

Post by aaronblohowiak »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8
bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

> or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors I think when you gain a fellowship or professorship in academia it does suddenly get a lot more relaxed and you get time and space to do what you want - which is the goal these postdocs are working towards.

If you get lucky in academia you get the possibility of tenure track which is a made race to publish and that means not only doing your research, but grant writing, dealing with internal politics and discovering life as a manager of grad students... oh yea, and can you lecture these undergrads too?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#18

Post by chrisseaton »

flobosg wrote: post #14
chrisseaton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. Can't you go into industry? You'll have a PhD + more papers done along the way in your postdoc.

Yes, of course one can do that and it’s probably the most reasonable strategy (as opposed to another postdoc, for example). But then, what was the point of the postdoc? I’d rather move earlier into industry. It’s ultimately a gamble.

> But then what was the point of the postdoc?

To continue to develop as a researcher and build up your research skills, publication portfolio, and network, ready to move into industry.

If you do an ok PhD you could spend a couple of years as a postdoc refining that research and building on your foundation to really making a name for yourself and then apply to industry at your peak into a senior position.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#19

Post by chrisseaton »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #17
chrisseaton wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors I think when you gain a fellowship or professorship in academia it does suddenly get a lot more relaxed and you get time and space to do what you want - which is the goal these postdocs are working towards.

If you get lucky in academia you get the possibility of tenure track which is a made race to publish and that means not only doing your research, but grant writing, dealing with internal politics and discovering life as a manager of grad students... oh yea, and can you lecture these undergrads too?

This isn't what I see in practice. Most professional researchers at the level of being a professor teach a couple of masters lectures for topics they're genuinely interested in and the rest of the time enjoy working on their research.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#20

Post by michaelhoffman »

chrisseaton wrote: post #8
bransonf wrote: post #6

Serious question: Why don’t they leave? I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.

> or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors I think when you gain a fellowship or professorship in academia it does suddenly get a lot more relaxed and you get time and space to do what you want - which is the goal these postdocs are working towards.

This is not at all the case in the fields I work in. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather be a professor than a postdoc but it is way, way more stressful.
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