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Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

thatgeoguy.ca

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Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#11

Post by catherd »

renewiltord wrote: post #3
fsflover wrote: post #2

About the USA-made version of Librem 5: > it’s kind of appalling that literally anyone would pay this much. It’s kind of appalling that Purism would charge this much. I can imagine a scheme where the parts are shipped from China, and verified and assembled by a part-time college student in the States and they’d likely still be able to price it cheaper than $1999.00. There are definitely valid reasons not to buy Chine…

Are there any? It costs the Earth to build in America. It might not even be possible. Maybe you can assemble in America but it seems like a fool's errand. Like five people want this and they're also so obsessive about other things that they won't buy your stuff unless it's perfect anyway.

I think having visible pricing differences for made-in-USA phones is good purely because it will make a lot of starry eyed kids starting hardware companies reconsider their assumption that they can make the economics of manufacturing in America work out just because they want it to.

I've seen so many go through that cycle, and if they aren't involved in an industry with strong reasons other than money to manufacture locally it invariably wastes time and talent, and often kills the company.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#12

Post by jacobush »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #5
renewiltord wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any? It costs the Earth to build in America. It might not even be possible. Maybe you can assemble in America but it seems like a fool's errand. Like five people want this and they're also so obsessive about other things that they won't buy your stuff unless it's perfect anyway.

The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China. We impose labor and environmental rules on products made in the US but don't require the same standa…

We will pay of course in due time, but you meant that of course. Complacency has a cost.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#13

Post by Causality1 »

I'm all for more variety of hardware and more control over software. That said, what makes these a better option, for anyone, than buying an android phone with an unlockable bootloader and loading a Google-less version of Android on it?

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#14

Post by dmm »

phh wrote: post #8

When reading this, it feels like the goal of those projects have derived? For me, the "goal" of mainline GNU/Linux smartphones is that we get like PCs. I prefer fedora, you prefer Debian, they prefer Slackware, all is well, we are all free to choose whatever we want for our computer. Here I'm reading it's all fragmented? And if it's fragmented, I guess it means it doesn't rely enough on Linux drivers, so long term su…

The pinephone can run the mainline kernel so it will probably have support for a while. There are several distros available for it because people are excited to develop free/libre mobile devices and they are experimenting.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#15

Post by varispeed »

fsflover wrote: post #2

About the USA-made version of Librem 5: > it’s kind of appalling that literally anyone would pay this much. It’s kind of appalling that Purism would charge this much. I can imagine a scheme where the parts are shipped from China, and verified and assembled by a part-time college student in the States and they’d likely still be able to price it cheaper than $1999.00. There are definitely valid reasons not to buy Chine…

Is there an open source phone where you can get the board done at one of the pcb huts, order parts from Mouser, 3D print the case and put everything together?

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#16

Post by db579 »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #9
baybal2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are definitely valid reasons not to buy Chinese products: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott_Chinese_products . Also what are the other competing smartphones which are made in USA? Made in USA is a big stretch when nearly all components are imported from abroad. Better to say "Few screws inserted in USA" On why you cannot really make thing outside of China: The biggest proponents of very purposefully locki…

Author here: I think this reply and the reply by AnthonyMouse in another sub-thread [1] nail it. I'd also add that just because you don't want to buy Chinese products != Buy USA made products. There are a vast number of other countries that would jump at the notion of becoming your supply chain, and don't necessarily have all the ethical grievances of supporting China. I actually think my main objection though had no…

Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#17

Post by ThatGeoGuy »

Causality1 wrote: post #13

I'm all for more variety of hardware and more control over software. That said, what makes these a better option, for anyone, than buying an android phone with an unlockable bootloader and loading a Google-less version of Android on it?

Right now? Probably not a whole lot.

Eventually once the software is more refined, there are definitely some features worth adopting for. The kill-switches are a decent feature, and I would love to have something like that on every phone (especially the cam & mic one, since I don't tend to put tape over my phone cameras!).

For the Pinephone, the hope is that one day you'll be able to buy one (or some successor) and be able to load whatever distro you want on it. It's vastly easier to work with than installing a custom bootloader, and then flashing a new version of Android. So as far as that goes, there's a lot to be desired.

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#18

Post by ThatGeoGuy »

phh wrote: post #8

When reading this, it feels like the goal of those projects have derived? For me, the "goal" of mainline GNU/Linux smartphones is that we get like PCs. I prefer fedora, you prefer Debian, they prefer Slackware, all is well, we are all free to choose whatever we want for our computer. Here I'm reading it's all fragmented? And if it's fragmented, I guess it means it doesn't rely enough on Linux drivers, so long term su…

The two projects (Pinephone and Librem) have definitely diverged in terms of their goals, but that's fine.

I don't see any lack of contribution to the mainline kernel or upstream code from either community. The main divergence between the two is the price point and how the communities are run. As for fragmentation, well, if you want a choice in distro, then fragmentation does kind of happen as a result of that.

But overall a lot of the momentum is in the same direction. The biggest sticking point I see happened years ago, when Purism opted to make Phosh + PureOS and make it GNOME based instead of rallying more effort to the UBPorts project. That said, it's free software, so this happens all the time.

(Don't get me wrong though, I really love what Ubuntu Touch has become, and the UBPorts community too!)

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#19

Post by flubert »

baybal2 wrote: post #10
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China. We impose labor and environmental rules on products made in the US but don't require the same standa…

> There are solutions to this. Obvious solutions. But it would imply paying more for stuff. Well, even if you do, you are up to myriad of other issues. The progressing general business unfriendliness of the West will not go anywhere. If it does not go, the situation will not change even if you put 1000000% tariff on Chinese goods. I myself been working on setting up a small knock down kit assembly factory 6 years ago…

Was it a regulator paperwork hurdle? Regulations themselves? High cost of labor? No skilled labor available? High cost of warehouse/manufacturing floor space? All-of-the-above?

Re: Librem 5 Evergreen vs. Pinephone

#20

Post by freeopinion »

baybal2 wrote: post #10
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem in the US is that everything is aligned against making stuff here. The unions have been in damage control mode for decades, trying to avoid losing the factories that employ two hundred to the more automated factories that employ twenty, but then as a result losing 100% rather than 90% of the jobs to China. We impose labor and environmental rules on products made in the US but don't require the same standa…

> There are solutions to this. Obvious solutions. But it would imply paying more for stuff. Well, even if you do, you are up to myriad of other issues. The progressing general business unfriendliness of the West will not go anywhere. If it does not go, the situation will not change even if you put 1000000% tariff on Chinese goods. I myself been working on setting up a small knock down kit assembly factory 6 years ago…

Trump just fought China with tariffs. That is not the answer and I don't think is one of the "obvious solutions" referenced. Let me put it this way...

Should we allow a factory in Indiana to avoid environmental regulation if they just pay a 30% tariff? Is it ok to have a 5% mortality rate at a factory in Alabama if they pay a 60% tariff? Should U.S. companies be allowed to just pay fees to become exempt from FDA/EPA/OSHA/etc. rules?

I know some will argue that it is the case in the U.S. A mining company can break the rules, kill a dozen workers, then pay a million dollar fine and go back to business as usual.

But we don't investigate, we don't fine, we don't punish in any way foreign companies that don't follow U.S. environment/labor/safety rules. We open the door and put their products on the shelf right next to U.S. products. The answer is not to levy a tariff to make them price-neutral. The answer is to ban them just like we should ban U.S.-made products that don't follow the rules.

If a company can pass inspection and certify that they meet U.S. rules the same as U.S. manufacturers, and still have a price advantage, I say let them clobber U.S. competition. But the U.S. company gets regulator inspections as part of their taxes. Foreign companies have to pay for U.S.-recognized inspectors on their own dime.

Same thing for U.S. soy farmers selling into China or Norway. They should have to meet the standards of those countries and pay for the inspections that prove it.

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