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A Computer Culture for Children [video]

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Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#11

Post by mysterydip »

mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start.

This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5 where the cursor currently is. I have a page of notes for implementation but haven't made time to try it out yet.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#12

Post by wslh »

noisymemories wrote: post #7
jcelerier wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. I'm honestly not sure it's really needed. This year I teach a class of graphic students, who have zero coding experience, how to do generative art with p5.js (Processing but in JS). It took a grand total of 8 hours to go from ground zero to making them able to write thing…

Had the very same experience while teach some programming intro courses for artists and designers (mostly simple python for maya/cinema 4d, and java for processing). Learning the language is rather easy, and if you're in design you're already experienced into translating and idea between different cognitive fields. But wrapping their head around algebra and trigonometry and making them conceptually "think" about them…

> But wrapping their head around algebra and trigonometry and making them conceptually "think" about them was extremely hard.

You should abstract these concepts in some way. For example, when you are moving an object in 3D you don't need to spend time projecting 3D objects into a 2D display using linear algebra. You just set the x,y,z coordinates and the engine does the hard work.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#13

Post by raxxorrax »

mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

True on one hand, but we should not make the mistake and place kids in completely surveilled child pen that only fills parents with delight.

How old were you when you started to dabble with computers? And was anything made specifically for you being a child?

I fear kids these days use mostly closed systems so the option to dabble is as hidden as it gets.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#14

Post by ArtWomb »

jcelerier wrote: post #6
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

> It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. I'm honestly not sure it's really needed. This year I teach a class of graphic students, who have zero coding experience, how to do generative art with p5.js (Processing but in JS). It took a grand total of 8 hours to go from ground zero to making them able to write thing…

Yeah, and I think you can even take the argument further. 14-year olds with little innate quantitative reasoning ability can be quite facile in Unity3D. And then the point is not how to teach introductory CS concepts. But rather how can they express themselves in 3D, VR, AR, etc. As digital natives, who have grown up with interactive entertainment, they grok the communicative power of new media much more readily than even their instructors might. And the outcome is that they are able to express their truths to their peers with a global reach that really was inconceivable back in Cynthia Solomon's time ;)

This Unity course provides a glimpse:

Real-Time Animated Storytelling

https://learn.unity.com/course/real-time-animated-storytelli...

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#15

Post by enriquto »

mysterydip wrote: post #11
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start. This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5…

do you think this is clearer in any way than "circle 5" ?

for one, it looks harder to type just with a keyboard

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#16

Post by tsumnia »

mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I would disagree - Alice[1], Scratch[2], and Snap![3] are all attempts to be beginner friendly; that is the entire area of block based programming. There are also attempts via Python with websites like CodeCombat[4].

However, I would say the issue is there is no "transition" to "real" programming languages. No one builds a Red-Black tree in block based programming and there is still an unrecognized issue about how "end-game" programming should be. Is it through layers of abstraction like corporate Java or is it completely linear with the current adoption trends of Jupyter and Data Science?

In my opinion, where the issue stands currently is that older languages like BASIC made the visual creation aspect of coding super easy. You could write 250 lines of code and you have a rudimentary space invaders game. Today, this requires external libraries, creating objects, etc. It used to simply be "HPLOT" to make graphics, now you have to introduce shaders.

[1] https://www.alice.org/resources/lessons/programming-in-alice...

[2] https://scratch.mit.edu/

[3] https://snap.berkeley.edu/

[4] https://codecombat.com/

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#17

Post by jcelerier »

wslh wrote: post #12
noisymemories wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the very same experience while teach some programming intro courses for artists and designers (mostly simple python for maya/cinema 4d, and java for processing). Learning the language is rather easy, and if you're in design you're already experienced into translating and idea between different cognitive fields. But wrapping their head around algebra and trigonometry and making them conceptually "think" about them…

> But wrapping their head around algebra and trigonometry and making them conceptually "think" about them was extremely hard. You should abstract these concepts in some way. For example, when you are moving an object in 3D you don't need to spend time projecting 3D objects into a 2D display using linear algebra. You just set the x,y,z coordinates and the engine does the hard work.

> For example, when you are moving an object in 3D you don't need to spend time projecting 3D objects into a 2D display using linear algebra. You just set the x,y,z coordinates and the engine does the hard work.

but setting x,y,z coordinates so that they do the kind of motion that you want is exactly where you need linear algebra.

Say you want to make a ball move in a spiral motion, how do you do that, from code, without students understanding algebra and basic operations like "translation on a plane" ?

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#18

Post by mysterydip »

enriquto wrote: post #15
mysterydip wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start. This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5…

do you think this is clearer in any way than "circle 5" ? for one, it looks harder to type just with a keyboard

for the reason that my preschool kids can identify a circle from a picture but not the words typed, yes (which is where this is targeted). This wouldn't be programmed from a keyboard (which also is difficult for that age), rather a toolbox would have all the commands available and you would just tap or click or drag them to the program.

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#19

Post by hugs »

mysterydip wrote: post #11
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start. This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5…

I started working on a similar idea, called "Wildcard"... The idea was to create a lower cost alternative to Lego Mindstorms for programming simple robots. So "⬆5" would tell a robot to move forward 5 rotations. The other idea I was playing with was to remove the need to type at a keyboard... instead, a child would have a deck of cards with all the syntax they'd need, then they'd lay out their program out on a table or floor, and then use a camera + computer vision to read in the program.

The idea was if we issued one robot to each child, it would be cheaper to program the robot with a camera and deck of "code cards" than to also have to give budget for giving them a tablet or chromebook, too.

Here's my original proof of concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSOfMSS9aFY

And the code is up on GitHub: https://github.com/hugs/wildcard

Re: A Computer Culture for Children [video]

#20

Post by leetcrew »

mysterydip wrote: post #11
mhd wrote: post #5

It's interesting and a bit disappointing to me that there's no real current trend towards beginner-friendly (or "end-user"-friendly) programming. For a while we had some interesting candidates, like Processing, Rebol, or how _why presented Ruby, and even Tcl and Python seemed more all-encompassing. These days it seems every programming language development is going again for "professionals" -- Typescript, Rust, Go, e…

I have an idea for a simple language similar to basic but using emojis to represent functions and variables (really putting the "symbolic" in basic), with click or drag n drop from a toolbox rather than pure typing so everything is available at the start. This would be a toy language designed for to introduce the world of programming to those who are learning to read. So for example, ⭕5 would draw a circle of size 5…

your idea (and hugs's) sound a lot like a pictographic version of netlogo's turtle programming. I believe netlogo is open source, so maybe you could just write a frontend that picks a nice subset of the netlogo functions and maps emojis to them?
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