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On Casuistry

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Re: On Casuistry

#11
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the original meaning of casuistry is "the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions; sophistry", which seems apt to this article. We have another name for what the article is describing, vigilantism. "Under casuistry, communities themselves deal with those accused of disturbing the community’s peace or of harming some of its members." I can think of few things more terrifyin…

> I can think of few things more terrifying than a community seeking to impose 'justice' emboldened by the absence of law. I can think of few things more terrifying than "law" being imposed on citizens by legislators and bureaucrats who themselves have no skin in the game and suffer no consequences if the laws they impose are bad. We have another name for this too: tyranny.

This is a good observation. There needs to be some kind of feedback loop to suppress the tyrannical bureaucratizing tendency of the modern state. It is obvious that our own society does not have any such feedback loop.

However, the answer is not some kind of local unaccountable justice system where a judge basically rules based either on the will of the crowd or his own personal interests, and then calls it "community reconciliation" or some such bullshit. It's like the person who wrote the article literally never contemplated the reason for written law to exist in the first place.

> The unpleasant truth is that if you live in a community whose members are not good people, you won't have good outcomes, no matter what kind of system you design.

I think this is also basically undeniably true. But across all of history, I really don't know of any politcal system that had a noticable positive effect on the moral quality of the individual humans it ruled over. So this just leaves me with a sense of metahistorical pessimism.

Re: On Casuistry

#12
Much of the discussion, both in the article and in the comments, seems to hinge on having a good definition of legal justice. May I suggest the following: "Legal justice occurs when all individual persons are treated equally and fairly under the law, and when no person is allowed to wrongfully take advantage of another."

As others have mentioned, I think this philosophy's weakness is that it leads to the very opposite of legal justice. There ought to be an objective legal standard that doesn't change based on who appears on the docket, the judge's unconscious bias/prejudice, how the judge is feeling about the case, his/her sense of how society is faring, or what he/she had for lunch. That's why legislators write law and judges interpret law, and why "legislating from the bench" is an aspersion and not something to which good judges aspire.

Legal subjectivism is just a big invitation to injustice -- which indeed can and does happen when the judge and legislator are the same person. (Hopefully he/she is not also the executioner.)

Re: On Casuistry

#13
post #7

I think one thing that’s very important is that the judicial system needs to be perceived as somewhat “fair” in that the punishment should fit the crime, AND that factors such as race, status, wealth, etc should not bias the outcome. As someone living in the US, it’s quite obvious our system has a lot to be desired in this area, especially when comparing outcomes amongst different ethnicities or wealth classes. But t…

> there is an ideal we reach for that our rules should treat every individual equally regardless of their place in life. Giving judges and juries even more latitude than they have already would completely shatter that.

Such a claim might be valid for crimes such as murder, where we would indeed expect sentencing to fit the crime and not to be adjusted for certain individuals because of factors irrelevant to the crime.

But most cases aren't like that. Most cases involve civil disputes between parties based on non-repeatable individual circumstances that don't lend themselves to one-size-fits-all, bright-line rules the way criminal prosecutions usually do. In cases like that, if there's going to be fairness at all, it has to involve judges and juries exercising non-repeatable individual judgment based on the non-repeatable individual circumstances of the case. Yes, there will be legal principles involved that could apply to many cases, but there will always be unique aspects to the facts of an individual case that can only be assessed by human judgment.

Re: On Casuistry

#14

Much of the discussion, both in the article and in the comments, seems to hinge on having a good definition of legal justice. May I suggest the following: "Legal justice occurs when all individual persons are treated equally and fairly under the law, and when no person is allowed to wrongfully take advantage of another." As others have mentioned, I think this philosophy's weakness is that it leads to the very opposit…

> There ought to be an objective legal standard

There can't be, because there is irremovable subjectivity in your definition of legal justice: "equally and fairly" are subjective, and so is "wrongfully take advantage". There is no way to write an objective rule that will handle every case. You have to apply human judgment to each individual case, and human judgment will always be subjective. Written laws attempt to set down objective rules, but such attempts will never completely succeed.

Re: On Casuistry

#15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can think of few things more terrifying than a community seeking to impose 'justice' emboldened by the absence of law. I can think of few things more terrifying than "law" being imposed on citizens by legislators and bureaucrats who themselves have no skin in the game and suffer no consequences if the laws they impose are bad. We have another name for this too: tyranny.

This is a good observation. There needs to be some kind of feedback loop to suppress the tyrannical bureaucratizing tendency of the modern state. It is obvious that our own society does not have any such feedback loop. However, the answer is not some kind of local unaccountable justice system where a judge basically rules based either on the will of the crowd or his own personal interests, and then calls it "communit…

> the answer is not some kind of local unaccountable justice system

There is no reason why a local justice system can't be accountable to the people who live in the community. But, as I said in another comment upthread, if the people in the community aren't good people, you aren't going to have good outcomes no matter what kind of system you set up, or what kind of laws you write.

> It's like the person who wrote the article literally never contemplated the reason for written law to exist in the first place.

Sure they did; they just recognize that written laws are attempts to achieve an unachievable ideal. It is impossible to capture "fairness" and "justice" in any written set of rules. There will always be human judgment required in individual cases, and human judgment is (a) subjective, and (b) depends on the humans doing the judging. If you have corrupt humans, you will get corrupt outcomes, and you can't fix that by writing laws, because corrupt people will just figure out loopholes in the laws, and writing guaranteed loophole-free laws is impossible.

Re: On Casuistry

#16

Much of the discussion, both in the article and in the comments, seems to hinge on having a good definition of legal justice. May I suggest the following: "Legal justice occurs when all individual persons are treated equally and fairly under the law, and when no person is allowed to wrongfully take advantage of another." As others have mentioned, I think this philosophy's weakness is that it leads to the very opposit…

Casuistic judgement is better able to consider the moral and ethical background of a case, without trying to associate it with any written legislation. Laws can sometimes be crossed while still having a high moral standard accepted by the society. Conversely, having low morals is not punished by the law most of the time. Good moral dictates the actions of people at a much finer level than what any law can regulate.

Re: On Casuistry

#17
post #6
post #5

> Under casuistry, communities themselves deal with those accused of disturbing the community’s peace or of harming some of its members To think that this turns out well displays either staggering ignorance or the naïvete of an infant. This is how you get lynchings, folks.

Well, the original meaning of casuistry is "the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions; sophistry", which seems apt to this article. We have another name for what the article is describing, vigilantism. "Under casuistry, communities themselves deal with those accused of disturbing the community’s peace or of harming some of its members." I can think of few things more terrifyin…

> Well, the original meaning of casuistry is "the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions; sophistry", which seems apt to this article.

That is not the original meaning of casuistry. It is the meaning given to the word by casuistry's critics, or rather probably the critics of the Jesuits, as they used the technique a lot in the past.

A 'fuller' defintion:

> Casuistry (/ˈkæzjuɪstri/) is a process of reasoning that seeks to resolve moral problems by extracting or extending theoretical rules from a particular case, and reapplying those rules to new instances.[1] This method occurs in applied ethics and jurisprudence. The term is also commonly used as a pejorative to criticize the use of clever but unsound reasoning, especially in relation to moral questions (as in sophistry).[2] The word casuistry derives from the Latin noun casus ("case" or "occurrence").

[…]

> Certain kinds of casuistry were criticized by early Protestant theologians, because it was used in order to justify many of the abuses that they sought to reform. It was famously attacked by the Catholic and Jansenist philosopher Pascal, during the formulary controversy against the Jesuits, in his Provincial Letters as the use of rhetorics to justify moral laxity, which became identified by the public with Jesuitism; hence the everyday use of the term to mean complex and sophistic reasoning to justify moral laxity.[14] By the mid-18th century, "casuistry" had become a synonym for specious moral reasoning.[15] However, Puritans were known for their own development of casuistry.[citation needed]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry

This is/was a pretty good overview of the technique through ages:

* https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520069602/the-abuse-of-casu...

* https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/954645.The_Abuse_of_C...

Old review:

* https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/293127

Re: On Casuistry

#18
Any discussion of philosophical casuistry should include the Jesuits' abuse of the technique[1]. They basically made it a synonym for deceptive argument. Put another way, it's an excellent technique for picking an outcome and then arguing to it. Great when you want to please your wealthy donors, not so great if you care about justice.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry#History

Re: On Casuistry

#19
post #4

It's easier to get people to agree to a process than a result, so processes make it a lot easier for people to work together. The processes are imperfect and often take on a life of their own, but still tend to be respected, and are generally improved when the outcomes start getting too far from the spirit of fairness. Transparent processes which involve specific laws are much easier to respect than opaque "wise elde…

Ah yes, the classic DKP vs Loot Council dispute.

Re: On Casuistry

#20
post #2

Merriam-Webster puts the two definitions in the other order, but clearly this is a contentious terrain: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/casuistry

Definition (2) was the original one, and the one that is at the top:

* [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry

Definition (1) is what the critics of the Jesuits applied to the technique during the 1600s, and what seems to have been carried forward in the general use of the word.

This is/was a pretty good overview of the technique through ages:

* https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520069602/the-abuse-of-casu...

* https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/954645.The_Abuse_of_C...

Old review:

* https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/293127

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