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A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

medievalists.net

11–20 of 40 posts

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#11

Damn, that's an unreadable page. I've got ads (or white space if using ad blockers ) the height of my whole phone screen,a cookie banner that blurs the background, a close button following me around and discracting me with the filing animation, a static button for the smartphone view (that's exactly the same?), A footer that appears if I scroll up and from that point on stays in place... What else could they do to ac…

Interesting. I’m on iOS in the US and saw none of that except a banner at the bottom. Is this directed advertising or is there some other reason it’s not the same for me.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities.

Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten alive by a wolf. You can't get more clear than that. If and when the hunter saves her, that's mostly for the benefit of the parent, not the kid.

I'll think you'll find that most children, even from a very early age (preschool and before), are quite capable of discerning fiction from reality, and adept at distinguishing and recognizing (if not understanding) the moral lessons. The problem, IMO, with many fairy tales isn't the gore but that neither the moral lesson nor the plots resonant; so the gore just seems gratuitous rather than punctuation. Nobody is afraid of wolves anymore (we killed them all generations ago), and we rarely if ever let kids out into the world without safety rails, even up to college. The latter wouldn't matter if kids feared wolves--the graphic detail would make the moral lesson stick, which is kinda the point--but they just aren't.

I think you'll also find that, especially in the U.S., we live in a ridiculously violent culture; violence that we at best only superficially disguise. It's not the guns dropping legions of "bad guys"--again, most children understand fiction--it's just... I dunno, violence as an end unto itself rather than a means...? Fairy tale gore in books is the last thing I would ever be concerned about. I've actively tried to read these sorts of stories to my kids, to add diversity to their diet, but they don't seem to ever get into it. I think maybe it's just too unbelievable and dull, not too raw. The modern world is too different, modern culture much more slick and appetizing, and they know it even at 3.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#14

Damn, that's an unreadable page. I've got ads (or white space if using ad blockers ) the height of my whole phone screen,a cookie banner that blurs the background, a close button following me around and discracting me with the filing animation, a static button for the smartphone view (that's exactly the same?), A footer that appears if I scroll up and from that point on stays in place... What else could they do to ac…

With uBlock Origin + Privacy Badger, I encountered nothing. No unexpected white space, no cookie banner at all, no close button or animation. This was on desktop though.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#15

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Fairy tales need to be a bit grimm (pun intended). They are supposed to teach about hardship and the difference between good and evil. You can only show the contrast if you actually have some evil to talk about.

A child dying in the flames she sparked by playing with a bunch of matches while she was home alone. The cats were trying to warn her, now they can only watch from afar as the child and house burn.

A homeless child having a final hallucination while watching (again) a bunch of matches burn while freezing to death outside. Another child dying from hunger because he refuses to eat what his parents are putting on the table. Yes, not the most uplifting stories, but where I come from, everyone knows these stories, and almost everyone knows them since they are about 5.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#16
I attribute most of my inset practicality to reading and rereading the unabridged version of the Brothers Grimm fairy tales. From those stories I learned so much about humanity, even though they are 'lighter' versions of the tales the very real consequences in the endings had an outsized impact on how I treated the world around me. Also, the Hans stories are a great example of showing kids that sometimes it's just pure dumb luck that people succeed and that has no bearing on the inherent worth of the person. I still have the copy I read as a kid plus a beautiful hardcover edition. They are books I treasure and go back to in a similar way that I peruse my philosophy books.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#17

I very strongly recommend Tolkien’s translation of Gawain and the Green Knight. the audio version recorded by none other than Terry Jones is extremely good. The humour and sexiness of the translation (no, really!) come through in spades, and his midlands accent is exactly correct and sounds wonderful.

I recently learned that Tolkien's son did some cleanup on the various writings left around after the passing of JRRT. (the phrase was, nothing was added, only removal of any contradictory passages and order). Any tips for finding more of Tolkien's writings, Middle Earth or otherwise?

I don’t have time to right a proper reply right now (May try later) but the real situation is really complicated. Tolkien spent his entire life writing about Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings is only a small part of his output. He also wrote academic output and some other stories. Tolkien himself sometimes wrote different versions of the same tales, sometimes in different styles, often making changes to the characters or plot points. He had no version control. After his death, Tolkien’s son Christopher pulled together The Silmarillian, which is a précis of some of the key stories of the Elder days of Middle Earth. He then published, over several years, books that presented some of the raw material, explicitly pointing out Tolkien’s own contradictions and retcons. This can be fascinating but frustrating, especially when Tolkien abandoned good stories and characters midway.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#18
post #12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

In the 90's and early 2000's, I was a child running around the desert and constantly being told how to avoid encounters with Mountain Lions, so we're not that far from those days.

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#19
post #12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

While toning down the sexuality, the Grimms actually dialed up the violence in later editions of their work. Why? Maybe because the later editions were directed at children and had to have a didactic purpose, showcasing the (harmful, often gruesome) results of unwise decisions. Needless to say, didactic insights were quite different back then.

https://eraebarnes.com/2017/10/06/from-wild-beasts-to-a-barr...

Re: A Survival Guide to Medieval Fairy Tales

#20
post #12

My point to add is that Fairy tales are not always (maybe not often?) children friendly by modern standards. Same as modern day "cartoons". They can have quite graphic content. My wife and I were reading from a "Trove of childrens songs, fairy tales etc" to our newborn, to get in the practice of reading to our child. Simple rhyming stuff, 3 blind mice, the luminous dong, tom thumb, jack and the beanstalk. It was gett…

Grimm's Fairy Tales are already watered downed versions of the originals, edited for the benefit of softer 19th century sensibilities. Darker material gives stories gravitas as well as putting the moral lessons in starker, simpler terms. If you don't follow instructions, or exhibit some antisocial behavior, you're not just "punished", you're slaughtered. Little Red Riding Hood strayed from the path and was eaten aliv…

> we live in a ridiculously violent culture

I am rather shocked at this sentiment. We live in an incredibly peaceful culture, in historical context. For example, people used to be hung in the town square. Burned alive for entertainment. People would wander around town with a sword, picking fights to the death, and it was legal.

I once asked my dad why punishments for people who conspired against the king were so public and so hideously brutal. He replied that the people lived in brutal times, death at a young age was common, so it had to be amped up to get their attention.

These days, I never even saw a dead body (outside of a mummy in a museum) until my 50s. It's incredible if you think about it.

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