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An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

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Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nature's limits on the population of that land Every city must import food. By that argument, all cities exceed the biological carrying capacity of its land and therefore shouldn't exist. Many nations also have a greater population than their capacity to grow food (e.g. UK, Germany). Should we forcefully remove half their population? Anyway, if you accept that cities can exist and can import goods, why is water som…

Probably because water is (considered) a utility whereas food is (to a large extent) privately produced, transported, and sold. > The people whose land was taken reacted with disbelief, sorrow, anger. That land might have been in their families for generations, might have been the family’s sole support, might have been the only home they’d ever known. The city decreed and mobilized and condemned properties for seizur…

I'm sure it sucked to be the guy whose land was taken. And I'm unsurprised that it wasn't done with maximum tact and local sensitivity.

But our civilisation does require large-scale infrastructure. Dams, railways, airports, highways. I doubt any of these have ever been built without compulsory purchase of land.

In fact, I think the legislation needed to do this was first designed for building canals. And it was controversial because it obviously clashed with property rights, which in the 18th C were pretty absolute. But if each guy who owns 5 acres right at a critical spot can hold the whole 100-mile project hostage, then it can never be built.

Growing food just doesn't have the same demand. It is completely routine to farm two patches of land separated by someone else's house, no big deal.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#12
post #10

> Do you do nothing and impose a water famine on a teeming city, or do you pull the lever and shift the onus onto much more sparsely populated rural areas? This is bogus: do neither. The cities should have accepted Nature's limits on the population of that land. There is only so much water and therefore there can only be so many people. To put it simply: "sorry, New York is full. We cannot issue you a building permit…

> "sorry, New York is full. We cannot issue you a building permit or allow you to make a water/sewer connection." Bolinas, CA does this. San Francisco basically does this and everyone and his brother here complains about all the problems it brings.

Bullshit, SF never says "stop"; they just keep jacking up the cost with more planning and permitting red tape. Those costs just get capitalized into rising land prices.

When you say "stop no more water" land values plunge, and fast.

"No more growth" scares people like nothing else. It does NOT cause prices to rise.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "sorry, New York is full. We cannot issue you a building permit or allow you to make a water/sewer connection." Bolinas, CA does this. San Francisco basically does this and everyone and his brother here complains about all the problems it brings.

Bullshit, SF never says "stop"; they just keep jacking up the cost with more planning and permitting red tape. Those costs just get capitalized into rising land prices. When you say "stop no more water" land values plunge, and fast. "No more growth" scares people like nothing else. It does NOT cause prices to rise.

It really does not matter why the permit was not given. The values would go up and up, because that is how market functions.

In both cities, people did not moved in just because they were bored one Sunday. They move in, because they follow industries.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nature's limits on the population of that land Every city must import food. By that argument, all cities exceed the biological carrying capacity of its land and therefore shouldn't exist. Many nations also have a greater population than their capacity to grow food (e.g. UK, Germany). Should we forcefully remove half their population? Anyway, if you accept that cities can exist and can import goods, why is water som…

Water is a natural resource. Food hasn't been a natural resource since the invention of agriculture. You also seem to be unaware of the difference in scale. The average American uses between 500kg and 1000kg of water per day. The weight (and volume) of food they eat isn't even in the same ballpark. There is almost a 100x difference here.

I can imagine that’s the average household consumption of water, but seems a multiple of the individual consumption.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#15
The second article mentions one of the odd side effects of all this: exposure in a quarry of wonderful Devonian tree fossils near Gilboa, New York, a town submerged in the filling of one of the larger reservoirs. This world-class fossil site has implications for theories of the late-Devonian mass extinction, one of the "big five" mass extinctions, where the colonization of land by large plants may have caused disruption of the global climate.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "sorry, New York is full. We cannot issue you a building permit or allow you to make a water/sewer connection." Bolinas, CA does this. San Francisco basically does this and everyone and his brother here complains about all the problems it brings.

Bullshit, SF never says "stop"; they just keep jacking up the cost with more planning and permitting red tape. Those costs just get capitalized into rising land prices. When you say "stop no more water" land values plunge, and fast. "No more growth" scares people like nothing else. It does NOT cause prices to rise.

> When you say "stop no more water" land values plunge

What? Why?

If New York were population limited, the permits would be worth their weight in gold. Any process put in place to ration them would be worth hiring lawyers and lobbyists and consultants to influence.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#17

> Do you do nothing and impose a water famine on a teeming city, or do you pull the lever and shift the onus onto much more sparsely populated rural areas? This is bogus: do neither. The cities should have accepted Nature's limits on the population of that land. There is only so much water and therefore there can only be so many people. To put it simply: "sorry, New York is full. We cannot issue you a building permit…

> Perhaps you'll move somewhere with 100 inches of rainfall per year, like I did.

Like New York?

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#18
post #15

The second article mentions one of the odd side effects of all this: exposure in a quarry of wonderful Devonian tree fossils near Gilboa, New York, a town submerged in the filling of one of the larger reservoirs. This world-class fossil site has implications for theories of the late-Devonian mass extinction, one of the "big five" mass extinctions, where the colonization of land by large plants may have caused disrupt…

The plants were not able to have their equivalent of our current debate "Is is all right for our descendants to populate the planet even if it alters the global environment and climate" ? It's ironic that we are able to and that may only reduce our evolutionary fitness.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#19
post #4

One book I'd recommend for changing your perspective, especially to anyone in the Bay Area, is _Imperial San Francisco_. It ties together early San Francisco's extractive economy with late 19th century American imperialism and industrialization. The author argues that by the 1860s, Northern California and Nevada were already in San Francisco's hinterland, but city leaders sought to bring the entire Pacific basin unde…

Imperial San Francisco is a great book. Years after reading it, I’m still shocked by the book’s account of how badly the environment was damaged by the gold rush. It was so damaging that billions in taxpayer money are still spent each year combating the effects over a hundred years later.

Re: An Account of Human Costs: The reservoirs that provide water to New York City

#20
post #18
post #15

The second article mentions one of the odd side effects of all this: exposure in a quarry of wonderful Devonian tree fossils near Gilboa, New York, a town submerged in the filling of one of the larger reservoirs. This world-class fossil site has implications for theories of the late-Devonian mass extinction, one of the "big five" mass extinctions, where the colonization of land by large plants may have caused disrupt…

The plants were not able to have their equivalent of our current debate "Is is all right for our descendants to populate the planet even if it alters the global environment and climate" ? It's ironic that we are able to and that may only reduce our evolutionary fitness.

Plants and animals are natural parts of this world.

Humans burning everything they can get their hands on is not.

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