A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism • Hacker News Board

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#11

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 4:25 AM UTC

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient?

As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much".

It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Columbus made a mistake and believed India to be much closer to Europe, and wouldn't have attempted to cross the Atlantic otherwise.

But my default position would be that any such delusional thought patterns tend to hurt. This, specifically, also has the ugly implication that anybody getting stuff done is sloppy and/or otherwise not at the genius level it takes to never do anything right.

(Spoken as someone who should be working instead of arguing on HN)

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#12

Post by jamestimmins » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 5:02 AM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #11

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Colum…

I think it's only too convenient if you view perfectionism as people wanting to do great work or nothing. In reality, I experience it more as "unless I can make this work perfectly, it's gonna be crap so it isn't worth it." So it's less procrastination, and more paralysis.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#13

Post by eyelidlessness » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 5:55 AM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #11

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Colum…

Completely independent of my comment about ADHD... whatever fictions we need to tell ourselves to function well are only damaging if they mask or enable other dysfunction. If people thrive by believing there’s a god or a magnetic force or lucky numbers, it only hurts if there’s some other harm done. I know we nerds like to focus on metrics and evidence. But the evidence is mixed on self deception.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#14

Post by Slackwise » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

tardismechanic wrote: post #8

Perfection does not exist in the universe. Imperfections can be found in anything. Enjoying the process, while fully embracing this realization, is key.

Math is perfection. So, it depends on if you consider math to "exist" in this world.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#15

Post by birdsbirdsbirds » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 6:56 AM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #11

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Colum…

>the genius level it takes to never do anything right

A Freudian slip?

Perfectionism is a deeper curse than procrastination. Procrastination can just be laziness, but like Alcoholism, if you cannot stop it, then you have a problem, and then it could be perfectionism.

Perfectionism is not perfection, like Socialism is not social.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#16

Post by tgv » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #5

For folks finding this model/analysis compelling: many of these observations and coping skills are common in undiagnosed ADHD. It’s not a perfect circle venn diagram, but pretty close. Any kind of paralysis without progressive validation or structured achievement is very likely associated with dopamine release and absorption. In adult-diagnosed ADHD cases, we often find ourselves discovering cleverly invented milesto…

Just a nitpick: don't say dopamine production when you mean reward. Dopamine may be involved in some feelings of reward, but it's certainly not the only factor, and it also doesn't simply signal "pleasure" or "achievement" to the rest of your brain. IIRC, it's not at all certain that a sense of achievement can be compared to the typical scenarios in which dopamine is mentioned: eating, drugs.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#17

Post by hnarayanan » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

xelxebar wrote: post #3

I loved this! Not only is it a neat, simple model to play around with, but the tone of the article made me smile. I need more friends like this author! Thank you for taking the (excessive) amount of time to write this and overcoming the urge to polish out all the "imperfections".

Her discussions on Twitter and the sorts of people who hang out and talk there are sort of a simulation of this friend set. :)

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#18

Post by rytill » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 7:59 AM UTC

Slackwise wrote: post #14

tardismechanic wrote: post #8

Perfection does not exist in the universe. Imperfections can be found in anything. Enjoying the process, while fully embracing this realization, is key.

Math is perfection. So, it depends on if you consider math to "exist" in this world.

Not meaning to infringe on the unassailable beauty of mathematics, but the statement that it is “perfect” requires some qualification.

Something like “it achieves exactly what it sets out to do?”

Given your definition of perfection and why math fits it, is there anything else that fits the definition?

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#19

Post by Fumtumi » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 8:42 AM UTC

It also doesn't help to be a software engineer which task it is to do things which multiply.

It also doesn't help that we are now so much more connected.

I don't write software for one person. I often write it for Teams or customers and im efficient when i can automate things.

I do see this every day when i see people or processies and i think very often how inefficient it is.

Concept of good old mail: "useless". Takes ages, a human being has to sort it and has to bring it to you. Or a lot of jobs like all things a computer could do better and faster if we removed humans inbetween and added trust.

My mind tries to analyse things on a meta level which also leads to thoughts of relevance. I'm probably a nihilist for a reason.

My Mantras for the last few years are about the 'normal' things. Like trying out a new recipe .

And at the end of the day, i realize more and more that simple logic isn't working and my influence is very small; Now instead of trying to change something i can't change on a meta level, my goal now is to get away from this all.

I'm wandering through a mist of clarity as everyone else to arrive at the same end: death.

Re: A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

#20

Post by Fumtumi » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #11

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Colum…

I see it the other way around: I should do something (for whatever external reason), i can't and now my brain wants to know why.

Thinking through it and telling you that its not worth it because x makes it better to fit my worldview. But it just might not be relevant at all this part of thinking.

For example: I do like learning but i was sitting in school (with >20) and understood the math teacher, after that we should do exercises. I was blocked. Couldn't do it. I was mentally aware of this block. I started talking ritalin. The block was gone.

I realize this block more often and think more about this blockage than calling it perfectionism or realism.

Another example: I started studing after that and realized quite soon that its fun to read through it and learn things and it feels totally broken how much time you have to invest of sometimes finding good explanation for things. And more complex it got, the chance that i started to forget those things after the exam were high. Knowing how aes works step by step vs. having a rough idea. I always can read quickly through wikipedia to remember enough about aes. I wouldn't needed to study for this.

And the balance was very weird. There were clearly lectures which i was able to do by reading and learning for a week before the exam (i already worked professionally at that time so i had experience) which provided very small peaces of insight vs. math lectures which were interesting to hear, frankly useless to learn due to me never needing it in the future and my studies not getting deep enough so those lectures would have mattered.

What matters is bringing home money which means in the first instance a job is critical. I would love to see who i would become and what i would do and how a live would look like if i wouldn't need to work and still have enough resources available. Or if my job would actually matter.