Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm² • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#11

Post by samatman » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #6

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Not if you start juggling several streams of 4k video, it's not.

Also, one can play games on an iPad, and games will soak up arbitrary amounts of CPU and GPU power.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#12

Post by kop316 » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #7

For comparison I was trying to nail down what Intel's 7nm process is, but I've found answers between 120nm and 215nm. If anyone knows, that'd be an interesting comparison.

Considering this news:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/intel-now-ordering-chips-tsmc...

I sincerely doubt Intel will ever disclose it.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#13

Post by samatman » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #8

Foundry sale price of $238/chip seems way too high. See e.g. https://www.cultofmac.com/658650/iphone-11-pro-max-productio... > Apple A13 processor that (is) supposedly is priced at $64.

That is apparently the price to assure that Apple is the only purveyor in town with a 5nm process chip.

Worth it? Apple thinks so.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#14

Post by jagged-chisel » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #6

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

I'm sure Apple consider the iPad Pro as a testing ground for these chips.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#15

Post by callesgg » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

jhloa2 wrote: post #4

pwinnski wrote: post #2

"A14 comes in at a cool 78% effective transistor density when compared to theoretical density." Wowsers. Apparently SRAM is the limiting factor.

If SRAM is as ubiquitous throughout chip designs as the article suggests, wouldn't that mean the theoretical density prediction is off?

The theoretical maximum density is probably based on some type of physical law or just a simplified model. That is often what people talk about when they talk about theoretical maximums/minimums.

Like if you have a box of dimensions 10x10x10cm the theoretical maximum number of dice of dimension 1x1x1cm you can fit in the box is 1000 dices. Chances are you won’t get 1000 dices in to the box as the world is more complex than the theoretical model we used for the scenario.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#16

Post by tpowell » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

I was curious just how many chips per wafer they net. From this 2018 article[1], it appears to be ~530 at 5nm, which would be $32ea if that yield is accurate. The same article estimated 7nm chips came out to $18ea.

Apparently, R&D spend went up 50% from 7nm to 5nm. I'm curious to see how many flavors of the A14 Apple cooks up given the comparatively high die cost.

[1] https://wccftech.com/apple-5nm-3nm-cost-transistors/

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#17

Post by kitotik » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #6

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Audio and Video work will take all the transistors you can throw at it. Things like GarageBand and 3rd party software synthesizers can easily max out even latest gen iPad Pros. Not to mention games…

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#18

Post by Cookingboy » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #6

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

>What’s the point other than the coolness factor?

So Genshin Impact can look and run beautifully XD

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#19

Post by manmal » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

talentedcoin wrote: post #6

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Having a more-powerful-than-necessary CPU has many benefits, here are some:

- Less heat produced > allows for smaller heatsinks and, as a result, smaller devices or bigger components

- Performance bottlenecks become less likely

- Features like 120hz display refresh rate become possible without the user noticing degradation

- Faster OS boot and app starts

- Ability to do more work locally vs using a server (see the many ML features)

- Tech debt in system code is less of an issue - code can be shipped early and optimized later

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#20

Post by topspin » Tue, Oct 27, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

I really appreciate this analysis and the straightforward top line number 134e6/mm^2. The usual "node" figure is utterly meaningless; an electrical engineer couldn't care less about "feature" size (whatever that means.) What is the count of discrete components in a given area? There are 40 billion 5nm (the supposed "node" of these chips) squares in a millimeter of area. That's two orders of magnitude more dense than 134 million.

The meaningful achievement is how many discrete electrical components are composed into a given area. Not some arbitrary dimension of some cherry picked subset of these components.