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Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

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Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#11

Post by DavidSJ »

StavrosK wrote: post #8
est31 wrote: post #4

Note that this is not about backdoor requirements or abilities, but about QuellenTKÜ (english: source telecommunications surveillance), which involves getting a trojan onto end devices, either through hacking, like using a bought 0-day, or by breaking into houses of suspects. It already exists as a part of law enforcement in various German states. The proposed regulation is to allow this for a bunch of additional fed…

So this is something like planting a microphone into your house so they can hear your conversations (with a warrant)? That doesn't really sound too bad, it's targeted and you have to go through the proper channels to get authorization.

I think you’re being sarcastic but I’m actually not sure.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#12

Post by StavrosK »

DavidSJ wrote: post #11
StavrosK wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this is something like planting a microphone into your house so they can hear your conversations (with a warrant)? That doesn't really sound too bad, it's targeted and you have to go through the proper channels to get authorization.

I think you’re being sarcastic but I’m actually not sure.

I am not, do you consider legal wiretaps bad?

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#14

Post by [deleted] »

LurkersWillLurk wrote: post #9
Barrin92 wrote: post #5

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world." Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to…

Because the laws of physics trump the laws of the sovereign? I agree with the position that law enforcement should be able to attempt to access communications with a judicial warrant. I do not agree with a government mandate to use flawed encryption that would allow anyone to read my communications. It's questionable whether that would even accomplish their stated goals, and personally I doubt it.

[deleted]

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#15

Post by noodlesUK »

Barrin92 wrote: post #5

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world." Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to…

I’m not sure I agree. If I chose to build an impenetrable fortress in which to live, and the police wanted to stealthily bug it, they’d have to figure out how to do it, and if they couldn’t get in, tough shit. Or they’d have to ask me nicely or someone else to give them what they wanted.

Furthermore, I don’t think they could really require my hypothetical fortress builder to intentionally build in weaknesses into each fortress they built so that they could get in “just in case”.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#16

Post by Barrin92 »

dane-pgp wrote: post #10
Barrin92 wrote: post #5

>Die Nachrichtendienste sollten in digitalen Bereich dieselben Möglichkeiten bekommen, die sie im analogen bereits haben translated: "Intelligence agencies ought to have the same capacities in the digital sphere that they have in the analog world." Going to be an unpopular opinion here but i agree with this. I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. Capacity to…

> I don't think there is any precedent for impenetrable private communication legally or culturally. What about discussions between conspirators in the privacy of their own home? Should the government be allowed to mandate that telescreens be installed in everyone's homes, with the promise that they would only listen in when they have a secret warrant to do so?

isn't that already the status quo? Most governments I'm aware of have the right to engage in surveillance of individual homes, albeit with strong requirements. But all guarantees you have right now that no intelligence is bugging your home is the promise (and legal protection) that they don't do it arbitrarily.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#17

Post by DavidSJ »

StavrosK wrote: post #12
DavidSJ wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re being sarcastic but I’m actually not sure.

I am not, do you consider legal wiretaps bad?

Not generally, but there shouldn’t be government microphones preemptively planted in everyone’s home, Stasi style, just waiting for a warrant either.

It’s one thing to have the ability to wiretap selectively and with some cost which makes it prohibitive to do on a massive scale; it’s another thing to require vendors and service providers to deliberately sabotage their customers’ products for them.

I mean there’s just potential for rampant abuse here. What of the right of political dissidents or other persecuted minorities to communicate safely? What of the possibility that this could be used to target a politician’s political adversaries (the way we see frequent mention of today)? There’s a whole history of abuse here, in the US and across the world, and there’s no need to facilitate the potential for such abuse on a scale we’ve never seen before.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#18

Post by StavrosK »

DavidSJ wrote: post #17
StavrosK wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not, do you consider legal wiretaps bad?

Not generally, but there shouldn’t be government microphones preemptively planted in everyone’s home, Stasi style, just waiting for a warrant either. It’s one thing to have the ability to wiretap selectively and with some cost which makes it prohibitive to do on a massive scale; it’s another thing to require vendors and service providers to deliberately sabotage their customers’ products for them. I mean there’s just…

Right, but the article, top comment, and my comment talk about one thing, and your response is about something completely different. That's a frustrating way to conduct discourse.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#19

Post by DavidSJ »

StavrosK wrote: post #18
DavidSJ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not generally, but there shouldn’t be government microphones preemptively planted in everyone’s home, Stasi style, just waiting for a warrant either. It’s one thing to have the ability to wiretap selectively and with some cost which makes it prohibitive to do on a massive scale; it’s another thing to require vendors and service providers to deliberately sabotage their customers’ products for them. I mean there’s just…

Right, but the article, top comment, and my comment talk about one thing, and your response is about something completely different. That's a frustrating way to conduct discourse.

You’re right, I didn’t read the context carefully enough.

Re: Bundeskabinett approves draft law allowing trojans on phones to monitor WhatsApp

#20

Post by walrus01 »

philips wrote: post #13

What does this mean for Signal?

if the authorities gain physical access to your devices while you're not at home and pwn them with a keystroke logger that phones home + automated screenshot tool, all bets are off.
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