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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#11

Post by door99 »

gedy wrote: post #4
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Unions are not perfect and unionized workers often have a complicated relationship with their union, but fundamentally a Union is just a democratic organization representing workers. The policies are set by the union on behalf of the interests of workers, however imperfectly. Without a union, the policies are set by management and there is no institutional power that workers have collectively against policies they don’t like.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#12

Post by door99 »

eplanit wrote: post #6
gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

> Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech.

Tech is absolutely not a meritocracy.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#13

Post by matsemann »

gedy wrote: post #4
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored?

My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well.

But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance they recently spear-headed the abolishing of anti-competitive contracts. That's something a lone worker probably cannot achieve.

When I graduated they said what I should expect to be paid. Which was useful as I really didn't have that much information (compared to the companies), and it also helped to anchor the pay as no graduates would settle for lower. And the union could reveiew the contracts and see what we should push back on before signing. That in itself probably helps keeping everything straight, as the companies know they cannot get away with abusive contracts so they won't even bother trying.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#14

Post by renewiltord »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Easy. I'm not anti-immigrant and I know large groups of disgruntled software engineers (precisely the union-fans) are. So I need to reduce their power. So I'm anti-union.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#15

Post by gedy »

matsemann wrote: post #13
gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

(US) Unions for many blue and white collar jobs are like this. Many folks like that type of structure, others hate it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#16

Post by speeder »

matsemann wrote: post #13
gedy wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored? My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well. But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance th…

I am from Brazil, from what I heard unions in Brazil, US and Europe all work wildly differently from each other.

In US in particular unions seemly often have power not only to defend workers but also to define workplace rules and even to veto decisions of the CEO of the company and whatnot.

Also in US unions were first born in a extremely violent manner, with both sides actually killing each other, and the culture there is thus much more antagonistic, unions and companies are perceived as literal enemies, where even violence is actually possible (not that people would use violence currently but people might not forget violence of the past).

From what I heard European unions have a more "cooperative" relationship with the company.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#17

Post by Apocryphon »

renewiltord wrote: post #14
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Easy. I'm not anti-immigrant and I know large groups of disgruntled software engineers (precisely the union-fans) are. So I need to reduce their power. So I'm anti-union.

I know your big fear is that SWE unions would push for anti-immigrant protectionism, but a cursory glance at HN reveals that the industry workers are disgruntled about everything from ageism to unpaid crunchtime to lack of compensation transparency to technical interviews to open offices (now a moot point) to HR inability to prevent sexism or racism. All issues that could potentially be more compelling to an actual SWE union than lobbying against H-1Bs and other nativist policies.

Do you have any evidence that the Kickstarter Union has done anything in the direction you're talking about?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#18

Post by darkwizard42 »

door99 wrote: post #12
eplanit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

> Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. Tech is absolutely not a meritocracy.

Tech is often more of a meritocracy than other fields/industries.

It is quite possible for a talented engineer to rise quickly out of university but nearly impossible for a talented surgeon or industrial engineer without a decade+ of effort.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#20

Post by [deleted] »

gedy wrote: post #4
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

[deleted]
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