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My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

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Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#11

Post by perl4ever »

kthartic wrote: post #5
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is pure speculation on my part, as I haven't looked into any data to back this up, but I also believe that a lot of conspiracy theorists become conspiracy theorists, whether they realise it or not, for the sense of belonging and community that is perhaps lacking in other areas of their life. I mean think about it - if you don't have a satisfactory social group, what better way to fill that void than by joining a…

>if you don't have a satisfactory social group, what better way to fill that void than by joining a group of hundreds or thousands that all think and feel the same way as you

...kthartic posted on HN...

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#12

Post by LatteLazy »

perl4ever wrote: post #10
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

Saying "facts don't convince people" is a way of saying "begging the question doesn't convince people", I think.

"begging the question"? I'm not sure i understand...

Edit: I get it now. To be clear: I'm not presenting proof, I'm just making the observation.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#13

Post by Arnt »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12
perl4ever wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "facts don't convince people" is a way of saying "begging the question doesn't convince people", I think.

"begging the question"? I'm not sure i understand... Edit: I get it now. To be clear: I'm not presenting proof, I'm just making the observation.

To beg a question is one of the ways to skip over the weak part of your argument. There are other ways. Begging the question is a way that leaves a remainder that must be true because it's true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#14

Post by LatteLazy »

Arnt wrote: post #13
LatteLazy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"begging the question"? I'm not sure i understand... Edit: I get it now. To be clear: I'm not presenting proof, I'm just making the observation.

To beg a question is one of the ways to skip over the weak part of your argument. There are other ways. Begging the question is a way that leaves a remainder that must be true because it's true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Ah, thanks, I've never heard that used that way!

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#15

Post by jhbadger »

perl4ever wrote: post #9

"SOMEWHERE or other—I think it is in the preface to Saint Joan—Bernard Shaw remarks that we are more gullible and superstitious today than we were in the Middle Ages, and as an example of modern credulity he cites the widespread belief that the earth is round. The average man, says Shaw, can advance not a single reason for thinking that the earth is round. He merely swallows this theory because there is something abo…

The ancient Greeks figured it out with basically layman's knowledge though. They noticed 1) Ships disappear over the horizon hull first mast last, suggesting the Earth is bent 2) The shape cast on the Moon by the Earth's shadow in lunar eclipse is a circle.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#16

Post by cafard »

perl4ever wrote: post #9

"SOMEWHERE or other—I think it is in the preface to Saint Joan—Bernard Shaw remarks that we are more gullible and superstitious today than we were in the Middle Ages, and as an example of modern credulity he cites the widespread belief that the earth is round. The average man, says Shaw, can advance not a single reason for thinking that the earth is round. He merely swallows this theory because there is something abo…

Samuel Eliot Morison, writing of Columbus, points out that every sailor knew that the world was round from seeing ships hull-down on the horizon. Aristotle--who counted for an awful lot in the Middle Ages--inferred the roundness from the earth's shadow on the moon, as I recall.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#17

Post by chrisbennet »

LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is true. When you are younger and inexperienced, you believe fact will change people's minds. This is just not true. I didn't figure this out until I was in my 50's.

It is very important for some people to convince others that their ideas are correct (which they very well might be).

Let go of this "I need to convince people to agree with my view." Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him to have his harmless ideas.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#18

Post by hansvs »

kthartic wrote: post #5
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is pure speculation on my part, as I haven't looked into any data to back this up, but I also believe that a lot of conspiracy theorists become conspiracy theorists, whether they realise it or not, for the sense of belonging and community that is perhaps lacking in other areas of their life. I mean think about it - if you don't have a satisfactory social group, what better way to fill that void than by joining a…

I agree. After watching 'Behind the Curve' [1], this is the feeling I got from the whole thing.

[1]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8132700/

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#20

Post by yetihehe »

chrisbennet wrote: post #17
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is true. When you are younger and inexperienced, you believe fact will change people's minds. This is just not true. I didn't figure this out until I was in my 50's. It is very important for some people to convince others that their ideas are correct (which they very well might be). Let go of this "I need to convince people to agree with my view." Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him t…

> Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him to have his harmless ideas.

The problem starts when some ideas are not harmless. For example idea that covid is dangerous. Some people don't see evidence of this around them (myself included, I don't personally know anyone who had covid), so they don't believe experts, so they don't protect themselves and others. Some people even have idea that they are in the right, experts are lying and they need to actively prove that experts are lying in any way they can, even misrepresenting facts.

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