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Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

sciencemag.org

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Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#11

Post by freyr »

deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

Do most people really assume this?

I think it’s more that scientists have tried testing animals for self-awareness for many years, and most animals fail any test they’ve devised. Maybe this is just a failure of testing, but I don’t think it indicates a widespread assumption among the public that animals are emotionless drones.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#12

Post by riffraff »

bhk wrote: post #9
deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

I've found that people tend to attribute human emotions and self-awareness to their pets, far beyond what science (or skilled pet trainers) would hold. And then there are other people that attribute these qualities and even the presence of a "soul" to plants, rocks, etc.. As far as the human "psyche" is concerned, I think it's inclined to animism.

Many years ago someone gave a talk on the ever expanding sphere of "things we recognize rights too".

One of the interesting point was how we tend to humanize "evil" objects which clearly have no intent: being angry at a mouse that does not work, some software that crashes, or feeling the printer hates us.

We do seems to have animism as a built-in mental device.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#13

Post by dfischer »

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10
deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

They’re doing it within their frame of definitions which is largely evidence of constrained models leaving options unknown outside the realm of reason thereby excluding outliers of surprising potential.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#14

Post by bigpumpkin »

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10
deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

I think it's likely that social animals are almost all self aware. How can an individual animal manage social relations within its pack without a knowledge of self and of other selves?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#15

Post by the8472 »

deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

> I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating.

Sponges lack a CNS. I am quite confident that they have no self-awareness. C. elegans has 302 neurons. I am fairly confident that it has no self-awareness by any useful definition thereof. At some point a brain will be sufficiently complex for the possibility of self-awareness, but that does not guarantee that it arises. And even when it arises it might be weak (e.g. the animal might have to be given many opportunities to realize it) or only true according to some definitions and not others. So since not all animals have self-awareness it is then a matter of default position. Do you assume they're likely to have it until proven otherwise or vice versa? Considering that by raw numbers there are more simple animals than complex ones the latter position isn't all that unreasonable.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#16

Post by the8472 »

dfischer wrote: post #13
exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

They’re doing it within their frame of definitions which is largely evidence of constrained models leaving options unknown outside the realm of reason thereby excluding outliers of surprising potential.

This sounds like critiquing science for not having all answers. Do you have a better approach?

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#17

Post by stouset »

dfischer wrote: post #13
exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

They’re doing it within their frame of definitions which is largely evidence of constrained models leaving options unknown outside the realm of reason thereby excluding outliers of surprising potential.

If you have any better ideas, the scientific community would legitimately love to hear them.

It’s not like nobody realizes that we don’t have flawless definitions for “self-aware”, “intelligent”, or even “life”. Or that the experiments we devise to test for these things come from our own experiences and bias, and might exclude creatures with novel presentations of these traits.

But they’re the best we have for now. And smart people have spent countless lifetimes trying to improve upon what we have, attempting to broaden these categories and their testing apparatuses without expanding the definitions past the point of usefulness.

So, yes, we get it. Everyone knows our tests and definitions aren’t perfect. We know they’ll exclude life forms with presentations of these traits that we haven’t even conceived of. Not only doesn’t science have all the answers yet, but it hasn’t even agreed on the wording of the questions yet. Pointing this out for the thirteen trillionth time just isn’t useful or insightful.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#18

Post by [deleted] »

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10
deeblering4 wrote: post #2

I find our assumption that other living beings are not self aware fascinating. Simply because we cannot speak a common language we assume creatures are drones with no intelligence or emotion, until we can somehow prove otherwise. It almost speaks more to the human psyche than anything else.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

[deleted]
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