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The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

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Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#11

Post by franciscop »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #9

I don't think the rant about Ubuntu Unity is fair. If anything, Ubuntu 18.04/20.04 LTS releases based on Gnome shell are serious regressions in so many ways (FF not opening new windows on top, std menu missing wtf, etc etc) that I'm considering something KDE-based next.

Strongly agreed; Ubuntu 14 and 16 were amazing to run, and 18+ are a huge mess with full menus compressed into burgers icons.

Connecting to WIFI takes me 8 clicks! As someone who regularly goes to cafes, this is very frustrating:

1. Generic top-right menu

2. Open wifi submenu.

3. Turn On

modal closes automatically!

4. Generic top-right menu

5. Wifi submenu

6. Select Network

popup opens

7. Click the desired network

8. Connect

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#12

Post by nanagojo »

zokier wrote: post #8

Does anyone have experience using one of the more formal method oriented languages (e.g. Idris, Agda, F* etc) as their "daily driver" language, i.e. using them for general purpose programming, for any extended period? I'm dreaming that by focusing on correctness one could reduce the maintenance churn that then can lead to various other spurious changes. But I don't know if any of those languages are really suitable t…

Idris is actually a general purpose language unlike the rest you listed.

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#13

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #9

I don't think the rant about Ubuntu Unity is fair. If anything, Ubuntu 18.04/20.04 LTS releases based on Gnome shell are serious regressions in so many ways (FF not opening new windows on top, std menu missing wtf, etc etc) that I'm considering something KDE-based next.

Yeah, I think Unity happened because of Gnome 3? Gnome 2 EOLed and Canonical didn’t like Gnome 3.

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#14

Post by dgellow »

> There is probably some truth to the idea that many newcomers will go for the latest features. However, on the flip side, I’ve been wondering if there can’t be a competitive edge in designing a language that is minimalistic, stable and slow to evolve by design.

That's exactly how I see Go, and why I personally use it, even though it has clear limitations and can be frustrating at time. And the language get quite a lot of hate because of these choices and their consequences. Minimalistic often means that you have to implement your own solution for some common problems, and/or write a good amount of boilerplate. Stable means that you don't change things that much over time, even if trends are shifting and new patterns/paradigms are developed, so you're potentially losing people and/or powerful technics (you also avoid the ones that haven't been proven yet and will potentially be seen as harmful in the future).

On the other hand you have the real benefits of having something small that you can easily keep in your mind, a tool that won't impact your maintenance budget, you can learn it once and then can be good for years without feeling the need to catch up all the time with newest changes and ideas. That's quite relaxing IMHO.

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#15

Post by tuatoru »

dgellow wrote: post #14

> There is probably some truth to the idea that many newcomers will go for the latest features. However, on the flip side, I’ve been wondering if there can’t be a competitive edge in designing a language that is minimalistic, stable and slow to evolve by design. That's exactly how I see Go, and why I personally use it, even though it has clear limitations and can be frustrating at time. And the language get quite a l…

> > a language that is minimalistic, stable and slow to evolve by design.

The upper case languages. C, AWK, SQL, COBOL, FORTRAN (yes yes I know the latter two like to be written in mixed case these days).

Also Ada ... hmm, perhaps not so minimalistic.

And Scheme.

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#17

Post by tuatoru »

> In software and hardware design, the things that we should be the most wary about breaking, are the interfaces that people rely on.

And yet the big boys just can't help themselves. I've been doing a bit of work with Google Sheets the last few months, and even in that time the user interface has changed a few times. Only in small ways, will be the offered excuse.

People are not just playing with this software, they're trying to use it. Usually as a minor component of some workflow where other things occupy working memory and attention.

Re: The Need for Stable Foundations in Software Development

#18

Post by pjmlp »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #9

I don't think the rant about Ubuntu Unity is fair. If anything, Ubuntu 18.04/20.04 LTS releases based on Gnome shell are serious regressions in so many ways (FF not opening new windows on top, std menu missing wtf, etc etc) that I'm considering something KDE-based next.

It made me move into XFCE, GNOME focus in GJS and extensions everywhere is just too much.

KDE would have been the alternative.

I really don't get the hate against Unity.

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