Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 81 posts

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#11
There are lots of areas that non-programmers can flesh out, especially for a startup. Be honest with yourself - just because "you should do everything" doesn't mean that you are great at everything. While you're focusing on what you are great at (programming), a non-programmer can be talking up potential clients, creating the marketing pages, working out the go-to-market strategy. This other person could be a kickass designer and they could be building all your collateral.

Comparative advantage is huge here. Yes, you could probably fill out all the business incorporation paperwork, write all the copy,etc,etc - but having another person do that work lets you focus on your primary skill.

Biggest thing for me working w/non-programmers? They keep me focused on building features that are useful to users. They still applaud the non-noticeable things like a sweet Hadoop cluster I built but the overall focus on product is key.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#12
First, Don't go to "startup events", meet with customers, other in your industry, find advisors (either technical advisors, or non-technical advisors who have a proven track record of raising funds, doing "business operations" et al). Attend technical conferences to find programming partners and (most importantly) potential customers and advisors. Don't waste your time around "biz dev" types (especially the ones without a "biz" to "dev"), they're the ones who form the "9/10 startups fail" statistic.

To answer your question, not all non-programmers are equal: much like not all programmers are equal. The types you see "seeking a technical cofounder" are the equivalent of 1990s "HTML programmers". On the other hand, a seasoned startup veteran who may not be actively coding (but, most probably holds a BS or MS in CS or EE) but has a track record of raising funding, selling the product, effectively handling business operations and the like has a lot to contribute (if you're at a stage where you need assistance in anything beyond product development: when this stage comes depends heavily on the kind of product you're building), even if his role won't be development.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#13
If you can bring money to the table, that's a big plus. This can either be from personal investment, or customers you have already lined up dying to buy Product X, which you need a partner to code up for you because it doesn't exist yet.

Design and mockups are helpful. If you have an idea for a web app, create mockups, diagrams, and flow-charts. Explain what every link and button does on the webpage. How it should behave, what should be happening behind the scenes, etc... Balsamiq Mockups, Photoshop, and Visio/OmniGraffle are your friend. The more detailed the better, so long as it's intuitive and easy to follow along.

If it's an iOS app, build the GUI. There are a lot of apps that help you mockup iOS stuff. Same goes for Mac OS X and Windows programs.

And of course, you should be able/willing-to-learn how to do business stuff. Finance, accounting, legal work, incorporating, all of the overhead that's part of running a company. Get deals with vendors, payment processing companies, capital planning (e.g. budget out how much it'll cost to host on Amazon AWS vs. Rackspace vs. Linode, etc...). Market research, what competitors are up to, how you plan to outflank them, etc...

In a nutshell, you need to make yourself valuable to a programmer. The more refined your idea is (assuming it's good, has an achievable revenue model), and the more you bring to the table, you increase your likelihood of finding someone who wants to work with you.

Where do most programmers hang out? StackOverflow, Github, Bitbucket, blogs, IRC, Hacker News, at work, in front of their computers hacking. There are programmer meetups you can find on Meetup.org too.

And of course, nothing is stopping you from learning how to code! I'm also a business/finance guy, but taught myself Objective-C/Cocoa and Python/Django. It's perfectly doable, but takes time, dedication, determination, and patience. Grab some books and get crackin! :)

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#14

i have a deep respect for sales and marketing people, as they can do things that i cant do (do smalltalk, sell bullshit and they actually like talking to people more than pushing to github) if you want to have a successful company, start collecting their cards, if you dont need them now, you will do later. said that: beware of talkers, if they do not yet have or had at least one (side) business then they do not have…

Lol @ "they actually like talking to people more than pushing to github"

I consider myself to fit in this category. I've always been a hobbyist programmer, but it is my damned penchant for humans over social code hosting platforms that has prevented me from becoming a professional developer, for better or worse.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#15
A good "business person" should be well-versed or at least dumb and ambitious in most of the following:

  - Hiring
  - Usability
  - Accounting
  - Copywriting
  - Customer Service
  - Project management
  - Business development
  - Knowledge of the market
  - Website optimization
  - Online advertising
  - Fundraising
  - Analytics
  - SEO
And the biggest job of all is to make money. This is a skill that requires practice and time just like any other.

Most of the people schlocking their half-baked, consumer-oriented, web 2.0 knock-offs at these events are looking for "technical co-founders" because they have no money. If they haven't made it before, I wouldn't trust their ability to make it in the future.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#16
post #7

I don't understand why all those product and marketing people don't form programmerless teams and cheaply outsource their initial programming needs. This won't work for immensely complex ideas, and it won't produce award-winning code, but it'll be good enough to create a minimum viable product and see if it has traction. If it does get any traction, THEN they can worry about finding a programming partner, and the que…

There's all sorts of problems with this. Usually startups don't have enough money to hire good developers, so they try to pay people in equity. Most developers who aren't personally invested in the idea or the founding team aren't going to split equity with non-technical people unless everyone is clearly bringing something to the table (marketing, fundraising, etc). Unless there's a clearly even split of labor in the…

"Software is very expensive to build."

Not necessarily. Offshore outsourcing of programming is quite cheap. The question is whether your MVP is so complex it warrants a $100/hour local programmer to handle that complexity. In many cases, it's not complex enough to warrant it, and paying $100/hour to a developer is inconsistent with building a MVP, because you're hiring a bells and whistles developer better suited to a large corporation with millions in profit at stake if the developer screws up. But, sure, if you're building something complex, you're shooting yourself in the foot by cheaply outsourcing.

"If you're willing to throw out the MVP code and have the new cofounder rewrite it, that might be something you could convince a developer to join up for -- but be prepared to "lose" the money for the initial MVP development."

That's exactly what I'm proposing. Who cares if you "lose" the money for the MVP development? If the MVP has shown traction, you haven't "lost" the money. You've paid cheaply for a traction proving MVP. That is money well spent, and now it's time to move onto the next level.

In any event, the idea that a developer would turn down an opportunity to be a founding equity member of a startup, which has a product that's already proven traction, because the MVP contained messy code is absurd. I'm not saying some developers wouldn't think that...I'm saying such developers are irrational.

"...but if you were looking for a partnership, I'd want to know what you'd spend your time doing."

Your attitude puzzles me. You have two hypothetical choices, if you were offered such a partnership.

1) Say no and continue to build software with a 90% chance of failure.

2) Say yes and build software with a 90% chance of success.

Even if the non technical cofounders sit on their asses and do absolutely nothing while you code all day, you'd be sitting on 33% equity in an already successful startup, when they took all the cash risk up front to prove the thing works. All you've got to do now is code and build on existing success. And you think that's an offer that you should scoff at?

In reality, the non technical cofounders wouldn't sit around and do nothing. This would be a group of people who've already proven they can go from zero to traction proving MVP on their own, and surely they'd continue to work in non-technical ways to make the product a success. I don't understand why you'd be so skeptical about what they'd do with their time, unless you think their success was dumb luck.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#17

I don't understand why all those product and marketing people don't form programmerless teams and cheaply outsource their initial programming needs. This won't work for immensely complex ideas, and it won't produce award-winning code, but it'll be good enough to create a minimum viable product and see if it has traction. If it does get any traction, THEN they can worry about finding a programming partner, and the que…

This falls through when the business guys try to build out a spec - especially to be used by outsourced developers. They use "human logic" and the bridge between the database and user experience breaks. Spending 10 hours, learning how software thinks, will make these types of teams way more practical and effective.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#18
post #10

I think the most important skill to expect of a non-programmer is presentation. Startup success boils down to two problems: 1. Building the product 2. Finding customers Be it personal powerpoint presentations, meetings, preparation of advertorial material, giving talks, or website content, the presentation of your product is really important. It is what differentiates a company solving real problems from a bunch of g…

To be fair you've ordered those as a developer. Non-programmer types are more likely to invert that list:

1. Finding customers 2. Building the product

Where finding the customers is something that they can be incredibly passionate about and actually affect. This is what the non-programmer worth their salt can add to a 2-3 person start-up. A skill-set aimed at focusing the pivots to those most likely to sell.

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#19
Where is this type of event? I'm in Europe (the Netherlands, to be more precise) and I have been trying to meet people who are more business-minded for years, but I can't seem to find any events like the one you describe. I guess I'm looking in the wrong places?

Re: Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team?

#20
As I see things, the main job of the non-programmer is marketing/sales. Sometimes you need this, sometimes you don't (@Yegg's "What are you building?" post is useful here http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2010/02/are-you-building...).

If you are selling big enterprise products priced above ~ $10K you absolutely need marketing/sales.

If you are lighting a powder keg, you got lucky and probably don't need much.

If you are trying to start a movement, you require hype, which can come from a dedicated community (e.g. tech) and may not require independent marketing. But you may need a community person. Or you may not be so lucky (e.g. your market is used car sales) and may at some point need a full-time SEO/partnership/etc. person.

If you are going "empire" you will eventually need these sorts of people, since they reach people that can't be reached otherwise. If you are going empire you will also need management people, since large organizations get unwieldy and there are lots of things they learn in b-school about wielding spreadsheets and org charts that will probably be useful.

Conclusion? I tend to think in general you don't need a marketing/sales person until you have a product, but it may be good to get them on board early in some circumstances, particularly if you are also searching for VC or trying to define the product better and need someone who can interface directly with potential clients and gather requirements, etc.

Post reply on HN