Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

bugs.debian.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 47 posts

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#11

Post by tremon »

salawat wrote: post #3

And this is why, I won't touch Debian anymore. I get enough BS politics and fief building to deal with elsewhere, and if I really want a Debian package, I'll pop the .deb open, and adopt it to my system conventions. I'm not sold on Debian's "maintainer knows best" attitude. You are not there to make decisions for the community, you are there to ensure the tools people use and want maintained are. As soon as you lose…

Fully agreed. There was a time when Debian could pride itself on being "the universal operating system" (for whatever interpretation of that phrase), but too many maintainers seem to have adopted a "my way or the highway" approach to package maintenance. The systemd adoption was a catalyst in that direction, but it wasn't the first nor the only symptom.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#12

Post by grifferz »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #6
grifferz wrote: post #2

I submitted this as being interesting because I feel it is a turning point in Debian's long init wars. The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important" It did not clarify whether a package maintainer was allowed to remove working SysV init support and refuse to add it back, and this is now what is happening here, so I thin…

What's sad is this is the kind of thing that makes Debian unstable in my eyes. Being able to choose whatever init system you want on your Linux distro is something that should just be a thing. Additionally I'm confused are these packages not pulled from another source or is Debian the sole developer of this one? I would expect support for other init systems to be in parity with the parent project of the package in qu…

> is Debian the sole developer of this one?

The init script is specific to Debian. I don't know what network-manager's stance is on init system support or even if they have one. I wasn't able to find one in a quick search.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#13

Post by fimbulvetr »

I don't understand why it needs to be so political. IMO, yes, he shouldn't remove it but there are reasonable alternatives such as another maintainer setting up a network-manager-sysvinit package that just includes the script (like git-daemon-sysvinit) or even an entirely new package such as network-manager-sysv containing the same files and the script. Then everyone can be happy - the said maintainer can live on without sysv and those that want sysv can live on with their specialized package.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#14

Post by Oomoo0sh »

roenxi wrote: post #7

Crikey; filing an NMU without any particular notice is not the act of someone trying to keep the peace. I'm no expert in Debian policy but surely the good form approach is to submit the patch to the bug report and give the maintainer a week to think about it. I'd love to see SysV init support continued, but that NMU request isn't helping. Maybe try harder with the negotiating first. There could be context outside the…

On the other hand, the maintainer ignored the discussion until the NMU was submitted, so it at least had this merit (although, still not useful, since the maintainer is still discarding the issue and refusing to explain his choices).

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#15

Post by unethical_ban »

In an internal org, this kind of attitude would be escalated to management. A responsible party for software used by the public doesn't get to say "Because I said so".

inb4 "technically yes they do" - I'm talking about expectation, not capability.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#16

Post by grifferz »

roenxi wrote: post #7

Crikey; filing an NMU without any particular notice is not the act of someone trying to keep the peace. I'm no expert in Debian policy but surely the good form approach is to submit the patch to the bug report and give the maintainer a week to think about it. I'd love to see SysV init support continued, but that NMU request isn't helping. Maybe try harder with the negotiating first. There could be context outside the…

> Maybe try harder with the negotiating first.

If you read the bug report there is a period of about 7 weeks where they are asking the maintainer why it was removed, offering to fix it, pointing out that it works fine and can just be put back etc. with no response whatsoever. I don't think there was any further negotiation that could have elicited a response.

The NMU was also delayed by 14 days in order to give the maintainer time to respond. Which they did. Within 3 hours, to simply say "please cancel [this NMU]."

Don't get me wrong: I use systemd and have no interest in going back to sysvinit, but to say the sysvinit users didn't try hard enough to negotiate here seems rather unfair.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#18

Post by danpalmer »

grifferz wrote: post #2

I submitted this as being interesting because I feel it is a turning point in Debian's long init wars. The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important" It did not clarify whether a package maintainer was allowed to remove working SysV init support and refuse to add it back, and this is now what is happening here, so I thin…

> The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important"

It actually said "Systemd but we support exploring alternatives".

I read this very differently. I read this as Systemd is supported, and if package maintainers wish to include other options they may, with a view to exploring future alternatives.

I don't read this as requiring or prioritising support for previous systems that Debian has moved away from.

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#19

Post by capableweb »

grifferz wrote: post #2

I submitted this as being interesting because I feel it is a turning point in Debian's long init wars. The most recent Debian General Resolution on init support said something like "we chose systemd but compatibility with other inits is important" It did not clarify whether a package maintainer was allowed to remove working SysV init support and refuse to add it back, and this is now what is happening here, so I thin…

Worth clarifying, only to be precise:

"Systemd but we support exploring alternatives" was what was said in the GR (Choice B in https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002)

So while alternatives could be supported, I guess it's up to the maintainer to decide if these chose to do so. In this case, the maintainer didn't want to, but could of course provide some better argument than "I didn't feel like it and it wasn't a mistake".

Re: Debian network-manager: Please restore removed init script

#20

Post by JdeBP »

Here's the commit. Unfortunately, there is no explanation in the commit message. Notice that it touches more than the van Smoorenburg rc script.

* https://salsa.debian.org/utopia-team/network-manager/-/commi...

Michael Biebl, for those unfamiliar with Debian, is one of the maintainers of the network-manager Debian package and of the systemd Debian package, amongst a number of others; and also a contributor to systemd itself.

* https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=biebl%40debian.org

* https://github.com/systemd/systemd/commits?author=mbiebl

Post reply on HN