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Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

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Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#11

Post by tptacek »

This calls to mind a lot of what McWhorter says about Shakespeare --- that it's an emperor's new clothes situation, we're only pretending we can understand 16th century English, but really not getting any of the original intent because none of the references make sense, and that if we really want to understand what those works mean, we need to update the language.

If you read interviews Headley has given, you get the impression that she's read all basically all the translations (apparently Tolkien makes it sound just like Lord of the Rings), so it's interesting to see where she's taking it.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#12

Post by epicureanideal »

morelisp wrote: post #10
peterwwillis wrote: post #7

Yeah, starting every line with "Bro" was such a masterful move. Because bros are totally going to buy and read this thing. Because it says "Bro" a lot. Why does literary fawning always come off as desperation? Like an english major that knows they wasted time and money and in spite of it want you to care really deeply about an Oxford comma?

So how would you translate "hwæt"?

Discussion here: https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-...

Interesting, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h9TNfd9BCE, hwaet sounds like "WAT!"

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#13

Post by [deleted] »

peterwwillis wrote: post #7

Yeah, starting every line with "Bro" was such a masterful move. Because bros are totally going to buy and read this thing. Because it says "Bro" a lot. Why does literary fawning always come off as desperation? Like an english major that knows they wasted time and money and in spite of it want you to care really deeply about an Oxford comma?

[deleted]

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#14

Post by shakna »

morelisp wrote: post #9
082349872349872 wrote: post #3

Shots from the updated trailer for the Iliad : Paris - fanning golden apple slices off his palm Bitch is mine, yo! Achilles - Hos before bros. Patroclus hypes Athena - Not much slumming with the mortals where r u :eyes::owl: Hector - slomo in drifting chariot Odysseus - Same thing we do every night, Ajax. Try to sack Troy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMs9WsJg2k

Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey

> "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations. “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully, the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly, almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of white paper might blush if you rubbed it with a flower. And it is a perfect example of creative translation."

That's... Did the translator completely forget that was meant to be a euphemism? Dawn's rosey fingers is quite a nice imagery... But Dawn was conflated with Eos. And well, it's in the name.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#15

Post by acqq »

saagarjha wrote: post #2

I'm not sure I can understand the strange juxtaposition of "modern" language with thousand-year-old meter.

What is jarring to me are always the anachronisms. E.g. while I can imagine that some form of short "bro" could have existed earlier, when I read the line using "sushi" I can't help but remembering that "sushi" didn't exist until recently. Then I feel cheated, knowing that the original form said something with the different meaning, and I'm aware that I can't know what it is reading the "modern" "retelling".

Another anachronism I remember: in another otherwise easy to read translation of an antique text (as is, originally written around 2000 years ago) the translator decided to regularly use the word "sadistic" which is constructed from the name of a real person living less than 300 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade

Otherwise, modernizing meter (moving to another, more suitable to the the language of the new version, or even doing away with it if the goal is just to retell the story in a more approachable way, with the acceptance that it would simply be too clumsy in the target language) I consider very acceptable.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#16

Post by moonchild »

shakna wrote: post #14
morelisp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey is similar in goal (flowing English, modern imagery, "scrap[ing] away all the centuries of verbal and ideological buildup") though not quite the same tone - Greek theater isn't the Saxon tavern, after all. https://www.emilyrcwilson.com/the-odyssey

> "Rosy-fingered dawn, in this new version, takes on many minor variations. “When early Dawn revealed her rose-red hands.” “The early Dawn was born; her fingers bloomed.” My favorite rendering is “Soon Dawn appeared and touched the sky with roses.” It is so wonderfully delicate. It evokes, beautifully, the sky’s subtle changes at first light: how the colors phase in mildly, almost imperceptibly, the way a piece of wh…

I expect that the translator, being an expert user of multiple languages[1], was very aware of all the surface-level meanings of the language (and many others besides), and made many complex and well-thought-through compromises, as is always necessary when translating (not to mention regular writing).

1. To which I can personally attest, as I own emily wilson's odyssey—it is excellent.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#17

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

>I'm the strongest and the boldest,

and the bravest and the best.

Yes: I mean — I may have bathed in

the blood of beasts,

netted five foul ogres at once,

smashed my way into a troll den

and come out swinging, gone

skinny-dipping in a sleeping sea

and made sashimi of some sea monsters.

Anyone who fs with the Geats? Bro,

they have to f with me.

-----

Absolutely amazing. Captures the ethos of the hero so well.

Sometimes, just like we thought the ancient statues were just stately unpainted stone, not realizing that they originally were brightly painted, we give these old stories a kind of formality and stuffiness, when in reality they were stories told by drunk warriors. This excerpt seems to capture that original essence. Looking forward to the book being released.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#18

Post by cousin_it »

A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf: http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html

One particular prose translation that I like: http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html

As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.

Re: Not the 'Beowulf' You Think You Know

#19

Post by voidhorse »

cousin_it wrote: post #18

A page comparing many many many translations of Beowulf: http://www.paddletrips.net/beowulf/html/journey.html One particular prose translation that I like: http://oaks.nvg.org/beowulf.html As an aside, I don't understand why people translating works of martial glory choose rap as the modern equivalent. People who actually fight in wars, from ancient times to now, tend to talk in "high" language.

Interesting point, but recall these narratives were spoken by bards and inscribed by scholars and monks, not warriors.

For the original authors, the tales of glory are the fantasy of victories they did not witness or commit but likely had to envision—just as modern rap is not the embodiment of power and wealth, but the fantasy and projection of power and wealth, the manifestation not of accomplishment, but of desire.

Narrativity and fiction have more kinship with what one doesn’t have than what one does—the actual ancient warrior’s “narrative” were his captors, heads on pikes, or the enemies he let live to tell the tale. In some respects the poets are responsible for sublimating the brutal, material symbology of war into something cultural, something detached from the event itself.

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