This is what happens when you rely on junk pseudo-science as a screening mechanism
Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
11–20 of 196 posts
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#12Ah yes, polygraphs, long proven nonsense and not used in virtually any other western country. I wonder how he beat that?
I'd guess that polygraph tests need belief into them working, thus making it work. Polygraphs should be able to (at least) measure nervousness correctly (e.g. due to transpiration), so if you believe polygraphs may work you're probably someone on which they will work (1). In other words, long proven nonsense as long as you don't believe in it. (1) https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf (Chapter 3)
Hypnosis comes to mind :-)
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#13My understanding is polygraphs are used as a tool to have people trip over themselves by using it as a prop when the administrator thinks they have something to catch them on. Now that makes me wonder, if they don’t use fMRI is it because it’s also just a prop but with more studies behind it?
Exactly. It's just an interrogation technique but you need one less body on the payroll because you don't need a "good cop".
Pretty much every manipulation technique used in negotiation, sales and interrogation is useless if the person it's being applied to realizes it. Polygraphs are about the lowest quality because the machine is right f-ing there for the world to see whereas with other techniques there's at least a non-zero chance that the person using them is being earnest and it's not just a technique.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#14KGB did not use or believe in polygraphs. Always found that an interesting comparison to American intelligence.
No, they would just break your fingers or until you admitted to basically anything just to make them stop. They didin't need a polygraph for that, just a hammer, a drawer or a door.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#15Ah yes, polygraphs, long proven nonsense and not used in virtually any other western country. I wonder how he beat that?
I'd guess that polygraph tests need belief into them working, thus making it work. Polygraphs should be able to (at least) measure nervousness correctly (e.g. due to transpiration), so if you believe polygraphs may work you're probably someone on which they will work (1). In other words, long proven nonsense as long as you don't believe in it. (1) https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf (Chapter 3)
Per the article:
>It is to be noted that around the time Ma applied for employment with the FBI, the Bureau had a roughly 50% polygraph failure rate for special agent applicants, with many honest persons being wrongly branded as liars and barred for life from FBI employment
So either 50% of FBI Applicants were actually foreign agents AND believed in polygraphs (why would they if they were trained foreign agents?) OR it's just total bullshit. I think the "it works if you believe in it and some people do" myth is just that...
It's a very attractive idea that we can tell (even partially) whether someone is lying. We actually might be able to with an fMRI setup I think. But polygraphs should be long gone as rubbish. I have no idea why anyone in the USA takes them seriously.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#16Ah yes, polygraphs, long proven nonsense and not used in virtually any other western country. I wonder how he beat that?
I'd guess that polygraph tests need belief into them working, thus making it work. Polygraphs should be able to (at least) measure nervousness correctly (e.g. due to transpiration), so if you believe polygraphs may work you're probably someone on which they will work (1). In other words, long proven nonsense as long as you don't believe in it. (1) https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf (Chapter 3)
You're wrong, they do not magically start working if you believe in them. If you're nervous for ANY reason it will give off a false positive. Not only if you're nervous of the machine itself.
It is insane it's still being used in the US.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#17KGB did not use or believe in polygraphs. Always found that an interesting comparison to American intelligence.
Aren't there psychoactive meds which weaken control and should work better unless the person has developed resistance against that compound.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#18My understanding is polygraphs are used as a tool to have people trip over themselves by using it as a prop when the administrator thinks they have something to catch them on. Now that makes me wonder, if they don’t use fMRI is it because it’s also just a prop but with more studies behind it?
I read an article somewhere in which a cop told the story of conducting an interrogation using an ersatz lie detector. If he thought the suspect was lying, he'd push a button, and out would come a piece of paper saying "He's lying."
It was a Xerox machine.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd guess that polygraph tests need belief into them working, thus making it work. Polygraphs should be able to (at least) measure nervousness correctly (e.g. due to transpiration), so if you believe polygraphs may work you're probably someone on which they will work (1). In other words, long proven nonsense as long as you don't believe in it. (1) https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf (Chapter 3)
You're wrong, they do not magically start working if you believe in them. If you're nervous for ANY reason it will give off a false positive. Not only if you're nervous of the machine itself. It is insane it's still being used in the US.
> If you're nervous for ANY reason
Agree, and also agree, it's insane. Still that's the presumed thinking behind it.
The (anti-polygraph-myth) site I linked comes to a similar conclusion.
Re: Accused spy Alexander Yuk Ching Ma evidently beat the polygraph
#20What's next? the FBI does palm reading to solve their hardest cases?