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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

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Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#11

Post by clairity »

umvi wrote: post #4

> ... we have realised that it is worth taking an economic hit in order to preserve health. Have we realized this? I think you'd find a sizable chunk of the country that disagrees. And I also think it's still too soon to say. > That, after all, is what money is for. Money that we don't have. We can keep conjuring money out of thin air if we want, but the effects of infinitely deepening debt seem negative in every cas…

what the pandemic is making more obvious is that money is getting stuck in idle and infirm hands. further, money is being injected into the wrong hands in the economy. we need money being injected closer to productive hands (like essential workers) rather than the current centralized system giving it to far-removed capital holders, those who prefer rent-seeking and other non-productive ways of stalling the velocity of the economy for their own benefit.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#12

Post by natalyarostova »

Bertrand Russell may or may not have been right, but he was definitely an elite who felt he knew what was best for the masses, even if he didn't take his own advice.

This is the guy that dedicated portions of his life to proving mathematics was derived from logic, who is arguing it's okay if people just wanna idle around.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#13

Post by allenu »

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

I get your point, but because we're in a lockdown, a whole host of things that we'd normally have available to us are gone. Normally when people have time off, they can still meet up with friends, or hang out at the coffee shop, or go to a meetup or a conference. Now we're idle at home without much-needed social connections to grease the daily wheels.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#14

Post by luckylion »

erichocean wrote: post #8
umvi wrote: post #4

> ... we have realised that it is worth taking an economic hit in order to preserve health. Have we realized this? I think you'd find a sizable chunk of the country that disagrees. And I also think it's still too soon to say. > That, after all, is what money is for. Money that we don't have. We can keep conjuring money out of thin air if we want, but the effects of infinitely deepening debt seem negative in every cas…

> Have we realized this? It doesn't matter even if people do—techno-capitalist industrial society wants ever-growing efficiency and production, and if it harms humans (like, say, causing wide-spread depression) it will simply invent new mitigations (e.g. anti-depressants) that, natch, result in new products to sell that improve the GDP. There are no brakes on this train and humans aren't even driving it anyway.

Everybody wants nice things, not just "techno-capitalist industrial society". Everybody can take an economic hit in order to preserve health and enjoy life more. Downsize your house, get rid of luxuries, stop going on vacations, you'll save so much money that you don't need to work as much (healthy!). You'll also have to give up having a larger apartment, a TV and 5 sets of sneakers (economic hit).

Yet barely anyone does that. We haven't realized this because it's not true.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#15

Post by UncleOxidant »

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

This. People are conditioned to non-productive, consumptive leisure. Some have hobbies and can find meaning in productive leisure, but for those who don't, after a while binging Netflix is just meaningless. Creating things is a very important way for humans to find meaning and to be in the Zone.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#16

Post by UncleOxidant »

FIRE (Financial Independence/Retire Early) is now a popular goal among the young. If you retire early, however, you're going to have to figure out what to do with all the leisure time. It would perhaps be better to have people working fewer hours, but over more years - a longterm 3-day workweek would allow for plenty of leisure as well as work.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#18

Post by throwaway7281 »

I distinguish at least two kinds of work: one where you earn money because you have no other sources of income. And work that relates to whatever you are doing on you own behalf - which can be very productive as well.

The first kind of work is a productive factor, like capital or land. It's just the brains and hands of a piece of flesh that does what it is told. A worker is always subordinated to capital, you are working for the capital of others. You never get the full reward, whereas people you never met will earn a share of every piece of value you provide.

It's funny, almost every second product I buy these days comes from firms which went to one or even multiple private equity hands in the past two decades. It is one of the reasons why I reduce my consumption to a minimum.

Neoliberalism hates equality, it hates social progress and it has absolutely no idea of how to do something different that would benefit society at large. There is no society for capital, there is revenue, returns and all human activity you are observing is partially there, because there is someone who just wants their profit.

Poles are melting, climate changes, species die out, capitalism (as it is implemented; the theory is much more progressive) could not care less about killing its own foundations.

It reminds me of avant-garde capitalists operation like facebook. It could only start on an open web, and its endgame is own all you presence online. Walled gardens, armes guards, cash flow.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#19

Post by commandlinefan »

natalyarostova wrote: post #12

Bertrand Russell may or may not have been right, but he was definitely an elite who felt he knew what was best for the masses, even if he didn't take his own advice. This is the guy that dedicated portions of his life to proving mathematics was derived from logic, who is arguing it's okay if people just wanna idle around.

> proving mathematics was derived from logic

A luxury he had because he didn't have to spend all of his time in the hamster wheel. That's how I would idle around if I had the option to (well, ok, not that, because he already did it, but something like that).

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#20

Post by UncleOxidant »

allenu wrote: post #13
Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

I get your point, but because we're in a lockdown, a whole host of things that we'd normally have available to us are gone. Normally when people have time off, they can still meet up with friends, or hang out at the coffee shop, or go to a meetup or a conference. Now we're idle at home without much-needed social connections to grease the daily wheels.

Meetups and conferences are happening online now and it's actually pretty nice. For example, if the Julia Conference had not gone online this year, there's really no way I could've gone to Baltimore for most of a week to attend. But because it was online it was not only free, but also accessible. They had discord channels to hangout in as well as other ways to socially engage.
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