.NET Team Survey: Native AOT • Hacker News Board

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#11

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

mariusmg wrote: post #7

jiggawatts wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've honestly given up. The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#, which was that any code that I wrote would "just work". Now there's more frameworks, standards, cores, and bu…

>The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. .NET Framework is a product, .NET Core is a OSS project. When .NET 5 will ship it will be even worse since .NET Framework people will just expect things to work.

I suspect a lot of people (myself included) will just stop at 4.8.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#12

Post by jeswin » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:51 AM UTC

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

This is about being able to use the language/framework you already know to compile to pure native binaries (like Rust, but with GC). It's a big deal since it makes C# viable in places where it isn't currently, like a lot of Go's use cases.

I had been away from C# for nearly 6 years, but was able to pick up Core in a couple of days. If anything, things have gotten simpler and there's fairly good cross platform support. What rapid changes are you referring to?

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#13

Post by jiggawatts » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:51 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #11

mariusmg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. .NET Framework is a product, .NET Core is a OSS project. When .NET 5 will ship it will be even worse since .NET Framework people will just expect things to work.

I suspect a lot of people (myself included) will just stop at 4.8.

Just this week I wanted to spin up a minimalist ASP.NET page for "tyre-kicking" of new infra builds. You know, something that just coughs up a single page with some basic info, such as the regional options, time zone, current time, and the latency to the SQL Server. This checks that the infra guys did their job and that the AD accounts and firewall ports are in place.

I wanted to write 1 page with just some dynamic labels, that's it. Nothing fancy. No MVC. No dependency injection. No JavaScript frameworks. No CSS. Just one ASPX or CSHTML page.

Visual Studio 2019 no longer ships with a web project template that does that. Every single project type coughs up megabytes of crap and a bunch of scaffolding.

After hours of clicking through every project type, I resorted to another hour of googling to discover that the "legacy" empty templates are still there, but only available as a hidden install option!

It's madness.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#14

Post by jiggawatts » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #10

jiggawatts wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've honestly given up. The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#, which was that any code that I wrote would "just work". Now there's more frameworks, standards, cores, and bu…

MAUI is Xamarin rebranded. Even with its half broken implementations, .NET and Java are still the best options in tooling and managed runtime capabilities.

If it was just marketing name change, it would be available now. Their current timeline has the first production release in late 2021!

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#15

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:54 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #14

pjmlp wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAUI is Xamarin rebranded. Even with its half broken implementations, .NET and Java are still the best options in tooling and managed runtime capabilities.

If it was just marketing name change, it would be available now . Their current timeline has the first production release in late 2021!

It cannot be available now, because Xamarin doesn't support all backends that MAUI should support, nor does it run properly on .NET 5 yet.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#16

Post by josteink » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:59 AM UTC

jiggawatts wrote: post #6

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

I've honestly given up. The new "open" development style of .NET Core is not my cup of tea. It's now riddled with MVP features that are 80% complete, bug-ridden, and undocumented other than couple of blog articles. The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#, which was that any code that I wrote would "just work". Now there's more frameworks, standards, cores, and bu…

> The compatibility break with the .NET Framework also removed the biggest advantage I saw in C#

I'll be honest here. The migration from .NET Framework to .NET Core is a pain. I see why things were done the way they were done, but it's still a real pain.

That said: for green-field works NET Core is clearly superior.

> PowerShell Core is past version 7 but is still missing many modules, including some key Microsoft ones

Just like .NET Core's main mission was not to replace the entire .NET Framework, the same applies to PowerShell Core.

.NET Core was created to make developing .NET-based web/cloud-services easier, faster, using less space/resources at runtime, and to have a fully supported cross-platform story. And at that it has been a wild success.

Almost everything about .NET Core is better to work with than the traditional .NET Framework (at least for the workloads it was intended for), and I'm always depressed when I have to move back to work on the "old" stack.

In this regard PowerShell Core is (as I see it) not meant to fully replace regular PowerShell either, but to be a good platform to do your cross-platform dev-ops'y build and deployment scripts related to your .NET Core deliverables.

It may not be what you want it to be, but it has a clear mission, and it's delivering fairly well on that.

> Lastly, I got fed up with Microsoft releasing yet another half-baked GUI framework.

I think this applies to pretty much everyone, which is why they never catch on, and Microsoft inevitably trying to "solve" this by releasing yet another framework.

That said the MAUI-presentation on this year's Build looked pretty convincing. If I had time to spare and had some small projects/POCs I had to work on, I might had given it a spin.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#17

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 8:59 AM UTC

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

You probably shouldn't, your customers won't notice. Joel Spolsky wrote a brilliant essay on this:

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#18

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 9:02 AM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #12

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

This is about being able to use the language/framework you already know to compile to pure native binaries (like Rust, but with GC). It's a big deal since it makes C# viable in places where it isn't currently, like a lot of Go's use cases. I had been away from C# for nearly 6 years, but was able to pick up Core in a couple of days. If anything, things have gotten simpler and there's fairly good cross platform support…

That was a requirement twenty years ago when the framework wasn't bundled in the operating system and download speeds were much slower. It's really a non-issue now.

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#19

Post by panpanna » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 9:03 AM UTC

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

> how do people even keep up with these rapid changes

Be happy you are not a Rust developer then ;)

Re: .NET Team Survey: Native AOT

#20

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Aug 06, 2020, 9:05 AM UTC

jeswin wrote: post #12

moksly wrote: post #2

I’ve been a C# developer for two (almost) decades, how do people even keep up with these rapid changes in the post Core world and what/when to use them? This is a serious question by the way.

This is about being able to use the language/framework you already know to compile to pure native binaries (like Rust, but with GC). It's a big deal since it makes C# viable in places where it isn't currently, like a lot of Go's use cases. I had been away from C# for nearly 6 years, but was able to pick up Core in a couple of days. If anything, things have gotten simpler and there's fairly good cross platform support…

C# has long supported it on UWP side, but now with .NET 5 there is an ongoing discussion if they will still support it or not.

The whole MDIL (Windows 8/8.1) and .NET Native (Windows 10) came from WinDev, not DevDiv, hence why it has its own idiosyncratics regarding .NET support.

Now with .NET 5, it seems they are gearing towards just a better NGEN, thus shipping a kind of AOT/JIT mixed mode image, which isn't being that well received and most likely the survey to feel the community.