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London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

bloomberg.com

11–20 of 129 posts

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#11
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

A lot of people gambled and they won.

Youn are kindsupporting his proposition - that nothijg evonomically productive has happened. Of trading is a zero sum game, liek OP is proposint, their winning just take from other parts of ecobomy

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#12
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

I’m fine with the downvotes - I understand it can be a controversial opinion. But I’d love to get some more detailed feedback!

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#13
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

Derivative trading is usually zero sum. There is a loser for every winner. I don’t understand in what world buying and selling oil on an open market could be considered theft. Everyone knows the rules of the game.

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people gambled and they won.

Youn are kindsupporting his proposition - that nothijg evonomically productive has happened. Of trading is a zero sum game, liek OP is proposint, their winning just take from other parts of ecobomy

Yeah, I understand the “when people gamble most will lose and someone will be lucky”. But the big difference I see in this case is that many legitimate businesses work with crude oil so not all of those people are gambling / willing to gamble.

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#15
post #12
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

I’m fine with the downvotes - I understand it can be a controversial opinion. But I’d love to get some more detailed feedback!

If you accuse someone of theft, shouldn't the burden of proof be on you?

Also, if two people make a bet, and one person wins, is that theft?

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#16
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

Derivative trading is usually zero sum. There is a loser for every winner. I don’t understand in what world buying and selling oil on an open market could be considered theft. Everyone knows the rules of the game.

Well, let’s consider a simplistic example: an obscure currency, let’s call it FAKE, that can be traded for USD.

That currency is only used by people in a small island, and that island only exports clamshells and imports Big Macs.

In this scenario, and unless I’m mistaken, the FAKE/USD rate will vary depending on: - how much clamshell those people can export and how much US people value them - how much BigMacs those guys import and how much those guys value them

Enters a day trader - someone who will never buy a Big Mac nor any clamshell. The guy speculates and there are two possible outcomes :

- He fails. Technically he basically gave “value” to either USD holders or FAKE have holders. Too bad for him, but he kinda made this happen.

- He succeeds. Now what? Isn’t that kind of a parasitic behavior? Couldn’t that be considered theft to some extent?

I guess the question may boil down to “why would they even let the day trader be part of this?”.

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed like every retail-trading angle was a losing proposition.

Idunno, my oil ETF shares are still up 40% from March so..... OIL closing was bullshit, though

That's what you get with an ETF consisting of futures contracts...

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#18
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m fine with the downvotes - I understand it can be a controversial opinion. But I’d love to get some more detailed feedback!

If you accuse someone of theft, shouldn't the burden of proof be on you? Also, if two people make a bet, and one person wins, is that theft?

Didn’t accuse anyone though :)

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#19
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

Derivative trading is usually zero sum. There is a loser for every winner. I don’t understand in what world buying and selling oil on an open market could be considered theft. Everyone knows the rules of the game.

[deleted]

Re: London traders hit $500M jackpot when oil went negative

#20
post #7

I really wonder if those guys really created $500M worth of “value” for the rest of the world. Because if they didn’t, it means it’s theft...

Derivative trading is usually zero sum. There is a loser for every winner. I don’t understand in what world buying and selling oil on an open market could be considered theft. Everyone knows the rules of the game.

You can always 'create' more oil by pumping it out of the ground once the prices hit a certain amount. So it's not really 'zero-sum'. If the supply isn't locked or restricted it's hard to say that.

Same thing with Tesla shares, or whatever it is. If you can create more Tesla shares its not zero sum (which is done often).

Currencies too are printed when needed. About the only thing really zero sum are some cryptocurrencies.

You could argue in some way that it is zero-sum, but if the price goes down and oil companies don't pump oil out, they don't really lose anything - especially with derivatives as it is on a future outcome.

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