Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet • Hacker News Board

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#11

Post by yorwba » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

vbtemp wrote: post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

> Presumably all Chinese

That seems unlikely considering that Vietnam's entire coastline forms the western border of the South China Sea, so that's where they're most likely to fish. The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia also border the sea and occasionally stop fishing boats in what they consider their territorial waters.

China probably has the largest fleet, but that doesn't mean the other countries are just watching them fish without doing anything.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#12

Post by vbtemp » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #10

vbtemp wrote: post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

I'm not expert on air routes but Bangkok to Tokyo sounds like it would go over the North part of the South China Sea, near Hainan then along the coast of China. So not really where the flashpoints are. Not sure what would be frightening and shocking apart perhaps from the potential overfishing, which is unfortunately widespread worldwide. I'm sure that Vietnam, especially, and other neighbouring countries also have e…

It goes a little farther south and then hangs a right turn to fly toward BKK from due East. So this was more from the south-central portion of the region. The "shocking" part was just the astounding number of vessels, stretching beyond the horizon.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#13

Post by valuearb » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

xoa wrote: post #5

me_me_me wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think UN should have a vote about it to decide on the panelty. Oh wait, it was veto'ed again. UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke (well, apart from peace keeping missions).

> UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke Well, the UN ultimately mostly reflects actual geopolitical reality. It's not actually a world government, there is no world government. It has the power nation-states choose to give it. The countries that wield vetoes? They also generally wield real "vetoes" IRL, ie., they've got nukes/massive militaries/economies. The formal legal veto they have in the UN merely re…

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR.

Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees.

The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who doesn’t allow a real democracy in their own country is absurd.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#14

Post by ethbro » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #13

xoa wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke Well, the UN ultimately mostly reflects actual geopolitical reality. It's not actually a world government, there is no world government. It has the power nation-states choose to give it. The countries that wield vetoes? They also generally wield real "vetoes" IRL, ie., they've got nukes/massive militaries/economies. The formal legal veto they have in the UN merely re…

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR. Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who d…

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history.

Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945.

UN formed on 24 October 1945.

> Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees.

Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies.

> The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who doesn’t allow a real democracy in their own country is absurd.

No, it wouldn't. The point of the UN is to avoid war, not to spread democracy [1]. The structure of the UN is a consequence of that aim.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations#...

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#15

Post by peroporque » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #3

sradman wrote: post #2

China and North Korea appear to have a side-deal for fishing rights which violates U.N. economic sanctions against North Korea.

I think UN should have a vote about it to decide on the panelty. Oh wait, it was veto'ed again. UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke (well, apart from peace keeping missions).

If you favor war over dialog, then your opinion would be understandable.

Thankfully, most people don't. So it's a good thing the UN exists.

It's a forum of dialog, not a parliament to make laws.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#16

Post by kohtatsu » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #14

valuearb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR. Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who d…

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945. UN formed on 24 October 1945. > Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies. > The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vo…

Are you not aware of what's going on in Xinjiang? (Or Tibet or to practitioners of Falun Gong or even christianity in China)

From the first article of the first charter:

> 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

> 3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

Democracy or not they do not belong on the UN Human Rights Council.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#17

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:32 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #13

xoa wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UN like a League of Nations is rather a sad joke Well, the UN ultimately mostly reflects actual geopolitical reality. It's not actually a world government, there is no world government. It has the power nation-states choose to give it. The countries that wield vetoes? They also generally wield real "vetoes" IRL, ie., they've got nukes/massive militaries/economies. The formal legal veto they have in the UN merely re…

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR. Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who d…

> The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes.

That's like saying that the House of Representatives would be far more effective if it took away the right to vote from Representatives you don't agree with.

That would simply be the end of the UN. Countries are sovereign and if they lose their voice in the UN they would just leave it and ignore it.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#18

Post by valuearb » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:34 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #14

valuearb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR. Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who d…

> The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. Last "nuclear war" was on 9 August 1945. UN formed on 24 October 1945. > Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. Yes, it does. If they have large militaries and/or economies. > The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vo…

There hasn’t been a nuclear war since the Cleveland Rams last NFL championship. The correlation is just as apt.

As far as preventing war in general, the Korean War, Vietnam, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the Falklands, two gulf wars, Russian invasion of Ukraine, etc, etc. UN mediation is no more effective than any other major power mediation efforts in history, in fact it can be argued the UN has been less effective.

The key method to avoiding war is to spread democracy, which is why the UN is such a failure, and it’s charter is the prime reason.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#19

Post by valuearb » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:38 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #17

valuearb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN hasn’t prevented nuclear war, it’s accomplished virtually nothing in its long history. It’s the League of Nations with better PR. Geopolitical reality doesn’t require letting authoritarian regimes chair your human rights committees. The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. The idea of providing a UN vote to a dictator or kleptocrat who d…

> The UN would be a far more effective and useful body if it took away the right to vote from authoritarian regimes. That's like saying that the House of Representatives would be far more effective if it took away the right to vote from Representatives you don't agree with. That would simply be the end of the UN. Countries are sovereign and if they lose their voice in the UN they would just leave it and ignore it.

Right, I’m saying the UN is ineffectual and corrupt and needs to be ended. Countries already are sovereign, and already freely ignore the toothless UN.

And no, its like saying we should take away the right to vote from Representatives who used corruption and murder to rig their own elections.

Re: Unmasking China's Invisible Fleet

#20

Post by nabla9 » Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 3:39 PM UTC

vbtemp wrote: post #7

I know this article is about the waters off Korea, but I noticed a similar thing flying over the South China Sea, in particular the Tokyo-Bangkok route. Flying late at night over the SCS, and then peering out the window from 40k ft, you see endless lights - thousands and thousands of them. At first I thought I was over land, but then checked the map. The next trip I noticed the same thing, and then the same. It was l…

Many of those ships have crews that are part of the People’s Armed Forces Maritime Militia (PAFMM). The militia are organized and commanded directly by the PLA's local military commands. They don't normally carry weapons, but they have military communications equipment and readiness to support PLA Navy.

https://www.andrewerickson.com/2016/03/chinas-maritime-milit...