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The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

m.nautil.us

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Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#11

Post by SuoDuanDao »

dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

My own - limited - experience with substances like these was that they didn't so much cause an upswell of positive feelings as that they suppressed their usual inhibitors.

Perhaps it's because I was very involved in theatre at a young age, but I feel I can manufacture that kind of affection endogenously quite reliably, what stops me from doing so more is a host of complex counterfactors. It's these counterfactors that I feel substances like these suppressed.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#12

Post by raun1 »

dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

I would strongly argue against your claim that altering brain chemistry strips experience of meaning. That is a highly biased statement based on a few strong, and IMO false, assumptions.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#13

Post by User23 »

Commonly used hormonal birth control does this already[1]. I assume if we routinely dosed men with sex hormones we’d see a change in male partner preferences as well. I’ve heard the claim that xenoestrogens already have, but I’m not sure if there is quality research on that.

[1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091007124358.h...

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#14

Post by dreen »

teknopaul wrote: post #8
dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

"everything you say is being stripped of meaning as it becomes more driven by emotions and less by reason" Only if you believe emotions have no meaning. An emotional response is a valid one, even if it does not help your startup. Not all human affairs are about profit maximisation. Reason is not the best tool in your toolbox to use if you want to fall in love. mdma probably is.

Dont equate reason with capitalism, thats just silly.

MDMA may cause you to experience a something and it might feel profound, but only through sober reflection on that experience are you able to learn anything.

Don't get me wrong, I think these substances are worth trying out. I just wouldn't want to fall in love through a drug, it would not feel genuine.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#15

Post by dreen »

raun1 wrote: post #12
dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

I would strongly argue against your claim that altering brain chemistry strips experience of meaning. That is a highly biased statement based on a few strong, and IMO false, assumptions.

Right, maybe I worded that too strongly, it doesn't make the experience useless.

I wanted to emphasise that even if you experience something that feels profound in an altered state, you should still reflect on it and examine it when sober, and only then you can truly learn something useful.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#16

Post by bluntfang »

dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

Anecdata: I had a roommate/good friend with a substance abuse problem, specifically escapism via MDMA and alcohol and sometimes LSD. MDMA use at least once a week, sometimes up to 2-3 times a week, depending on how long their party lasted. Blackout level alcohol use ~5 times a week. LSD use biweekly or monthly. They knew their lifestyle was hurting our relationship and could only come to terms with that while rolling, but when sober was unable to come to terms with their problems. It was impossible to take their gushing of emotions and how much they loved and how much they missed their relationship with me and asking if what they were doing was OK with me etc while under the influence. It felt fake, because their sober experience didn't reflect their gushing of emotions. I'm sure the extreme use had something to do with this, but I really have a hard time finding MDMA valuable, for fear that I'll get vulnerable say something that I can't back up in my sober living.

It's so hurtful to hear strong emotions that don't last.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#17

Post by vladvasiliu »

dreen wrote: post #15
raun1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would strongly argue against your claim that altering brain chemistry strips experience of meaning. That is a highly biased statement based on a few strong, and IMO false, assumptions.

Right, maybe I worded that too strongly, it doesn't make the experience useless. I wanted to emphasise that even if you experience something that feels profound in an altered state, you should still reflect on it and examine it when sober, and only then you can truly learn something useful.

I think this answer is quite different from your original post in that it doesn't deny the value of the experiences lived under the influence.

I think it's very important for those experiences to be examined while sober, just like experiences lived under any other kind of altered state, even "natural" ones - say while extremely angry.

As SuoDuanDao said in his response, I think there's a question of "barriers" going down while under MDMA. Sure, there are things you do under its influence that you wouldn't have done sober. Maybe things that you would never have done. But isn't that the point? It allows you to try things you wouldn't have tried otherwise and see the effects. Of course, sober reflexion is required. But this allows you to have a different perspective on what is possible.

Something I see often mentioned in discussions around MDMA is its effects on social anxiety. Some people find it difficult to be open. I for one am fairly taciturn, don't talk much. For such people seeing what is possible may allow them to rethink why they do or don't do certain things in their day to day lives and maybe adapt their actions.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#18

Post by dreen »

bluntfang wrote: post #16
dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

Anecdata: I had a roommate/good friend with a substance abuse problem, specifically escapism via MDMA and alcohol and sometimes LSD. MDMA use at least once a week, sometimes up to 2-3 times a week, depending on how long their party lasted. Blackout level alcohol use ~5 times a week. LSD use biweekly or monthly. They knew their lifestyle was hurting our relationship and could only come to terms with that while rolling…

I'm sorry to hear that, as someone who has had a very close family member succumb and pass away due to alcoholism, the worst feeling for me was that there is nothing you can do unless the person wants to change.

However, all substances are ultimately out there for people to try to enjoy responsibly, in the right company. As long as you understand that what you say and do under the influence isn't necessarily genuine you should be able to relax enough and let your guard down to enjoy it. Again, the company you're in matters a lot, as well as the fact that you're not excused from your actions if not sober.

It's like when watching porn, you realise that's not how real sex looks like. If you did, you would acquire some very unhealthy preconceptions. But one can still enjoy it responsibly.

Re: The Brave New World of Chemical Romance

#19

Post by nsilvestri »

dreen wrote: post #3

It's true that drugs like MDMA or Mephedrone can cause an outpuring of feelings very much similar to what you feel when really loving someone (in my time in university, Mephedrone used to be called "The Big Love" by partaking students, it was legal then). However, a sober examination of those feelings after some time may reveal to you an underlying "fakeness", in the sense that what you were showing was not really a…

Not that I necessarily disagree with the conclusion, but your argument would suggest that anyone using antidepressants or other medications in order to function "normally" aren't experiencing real emotion.
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