Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987 • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#11

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #3

From the boss's article: > They may become inhibited and stilted, self-consciously muting the more overt expressions of their comraderie because they feel that frank vulgarity is inappropriate in the presence of females, even if that vulgarity is a male social lubricant and if women profess not to object. They may openly rebuff her presence because they are unable to relate to her on masculine emotional terms. They m…

> Although his conclusion may have been wrong, it sounds like he was ahead of his time in predicting some consequences of sexisim that many feminists point out exist today.

ISTM that he's predicting some very real social frictions, but that calling them "consequences of sexism" may be a bit silly-- unless you posit that literally any institutional dynamic that might disadvantage women in some way is per se structural/institutional sexism, which is really just a matter of semantics. They're consequences of forcing people presenting with very different gender roles (male vs. female) to interact in a newly diverse environment. This will always involve some compromising of values.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#12

Post by asveikau » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

Maybe he was asked to quit, perhaps rather forcefully. But he is going out in a classy way by saying his prior position was wrong.

The people on this thread calling this "cancel culture" could learn something from the frankness of the statement.

Keep in mind his company has military contracts. If the PR guy is on record opposing women in the military, even a long time ago... Not good.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#13

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #5

whatshisface wrote: post #3

From the boss's article: > They may become inhibited and stilted, self-consciously muting the more overt expressions of their comraderie because they feel that frank vulgarity is inappropriate in the presence of females, even if that vulgarity is a male social lubricant and if women profess not to object. They may openly rebuff her presence because they are unable to relate to her on masculine emotional terms. They m…

How could that statement balance my opinion of how right he was? If the only problem with it is that he didn't provide any sources or reasons to believe that, it is worth pointing out that you have neither provided sources or reasons to believe the opposite.

whatshisface wasn't trying to prove the opposite. It was a simple statement about somebody not showing evidence while making pronouncements about how half the human race behaves. You probably wouldn't have a problem with this in most other contexts; if somebody made a sweeping technical claim with no explanation or particular qualification, you'd laugh.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#14

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #11

whatshisface wrote: post #3

From the boss's article: > They may become inhibited and stilted, self-consciously muting the more overt expressions of their comraderie because they feel that frank vulgarity is inappropriate in the presence of females, even if that vulgarity is a male social lubricant and if women profess not to object. They may openly rebuff her presence because they are unable to relate to her on masculine emotional terms. They m…

> Although his conclusion may have been wrong, it sounds like he was ahead of his time in predicting some consequences of sexisim that many feminists point out exist today. ISTM that he's predicting some very real social frictions, but that calling them "consequences of sexism" may be a bit silly-- unless you posit that literally any institutional dynamic that might disadvantage women in some way is per se structural…

The absolute last debate I want to get in to is what the definition of sexism is, so I'll just say that I meant it as "anything that's bad, psychological or sociological in nature, and related to gender."

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#15

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #11

whatshisface wrote: post #3

From the boss's article: > They may become inhibited and stilted, self-consciously muting the more overt expressions of their comraderie because they feel that frank vulgarity is inappropriate in the presence of females, even if that vulgarity is a male social lubricant and if women profess not to object. They may openly rebuff her presence because they are unable to relate to her on masculine emotional terms. They m…

> Although his conclusion may have been wrong, it sounds like he was ahead of his time in predicting some consequences of sexisim that many feminists point out exist today. ISTM that he's predicting some very real social frictions, but that calling them "consequences of sexism" may be a bit silly-- unless you posit that literally any institutional dynamic that might disadvantage women in some way is per se structural…

"Gender roles" seems obviously institutional. Who exactly assigns them, and why would it be silly to say that the portions that aren't clearly biological are likely sexist?

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#16

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #13

jtbayly wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could that statement balance my opinion of how right he was? If the only problem with it is that he didn't provide any sources or reasons to believe that, it is worth pointing out that you have neither provided sources or reasons to believe the opposite.

whatshisface wasn't trying to prove the opposite. It was a simple statement about somebody not showing evidence while making pronouncements about how half the human race behaves. You probably wouldn't have a problem with this in most other contexts; if somebody made a sweeping technical claim with no explanation or particular qualification, you'd laugh.

It's hard to show evidence either way, because the way you read this will entirely depend on what you take the words "ritual comradeship" to mean. There are some forms of comradeship that are pretty strongly male-coded, and few people would deny that. At the same time, few people would say that women never bond socially with one another.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#17

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #16

pessimizer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whatshisface wasn't trying to prove the opposite. It was a simple statement about somebody not showing evidence while making pronouncements about how half the human race behaves. You probably wouldn't have a problem with this in most other contexts; if somebody made a sweeping technical claim with no explanation or particular qualification, you'd laugh.

It's hard to show evidence either way, because the way you read this will entirely depend on what you take the words "ritual comradeship" to mean. There are some forms of comradeship that are pretty strongly male-coded, and few people would deny that. At the same time, few people would say that women never bond socially with one another.

"Hard to show evidence" isn't a hall pass for everyone's unmotivated guesses. Could you imagine how slowly science would progress if every time a question was discovered to be hard, the journals filled with everyone's preconceived notions? If in the deluge of opinion someone tried to publish a shred of relatively inconsequential evidence, nobody would notice it amidst the grand narratives, and the shreds would never have a chance to be assembled in to the real truth.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#18

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

major505 wrote: post #7

this cancel culture thing is getting out of control. First you cannot judge how people would talk or act in the past based in present values. Why are people able to consider cultural subjectivity when talking about other cultures, but not our own? We are not the same society that we where 40 years ago. Things changed, opnions to And event if the guy was sexist, this attitute dosent consider if his opnion changed over…

He was canceled by Boeing. If they thought he was worth keeping, it would have been very easy to defend him against this ancient article, especially since his classy exit shows him to be willing to contritely say the right things now.

If you're saying that Boeing is out of control, I agree, although firing some exec for being passionately sexist at one time in his life doesn't rank on the list of their sins imo.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#19

Post by cbhl » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #10

jtbayly wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could that statement balance my opinion of how right he was? If the only problem with it is that he didn't provide any sources or reasons to believe that, it is worth pointing out that you have neither provided sources or reasons to believe the opposite.

If you have some unsubstantiated armchair opinions about something, the right thing to do isn't to publish them and wait for someone to correct you, it's to remain silent until you find a reason for you opinion, or change your opinion. Otherwise, we would drown in a sea of well-written articles that say "X is true" and "X is false" with equal frequency, and no matter how many we read we would never learn anything.

In mathematics, an unsubstantiated armchair opinion is called a "conjecture", and can be subsequently proven or disproven by the same person or another person.

If scientists of yore had "remain silent until you find a reason for your opinion" we'd probably still think the sun revolves around the earth.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#20

Post by apsec112 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

asveikau wrote: post #12

Maybe he was asked to quit, perhaps rather forcefully. But he is going out in a classy way by saying his prior position was wrong. The people on this thread calling this "cancel culture" could learn something from the frankness of the statement. Keep in mind his company has military contracts. If the PR guy is on record opposing women in the military, even a long time ago... Not good.

This culture of "never forget, no excuses, no forgiveness" is part of why the US has so many people in prison. Suppose someone commits an armed robbery. They should be arrested, certainly, for many reasons. But after they have been tried, punished, and served their sentence, should they be permanently exiled from society? Should they never be able to find employment for the rest of their life? No, because that doesn't help anyone and just creates more crime. This person is probably rich enough to retire, but most people are not - they need a job, or else they'll get evicted and wind up homeless. "You can never work again" isn't that much better than America's history of insanely vindictive prison sentences.