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'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

theregister.com

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Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#11

Post by u801e »

kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

> Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Is there an established open source project out there that originally used a mailing list or some other review software like gerrit, reviewboard, or phabricator, that transitioned to Github or Gitlab and actually increased the number of contributors and maintainers?

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#12

Post by kstenerud »

finnthehuman wrote: post #9
kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

I'm often confused as to how many people really have a potential future where they become motivated long term participants, but a few bumpy roads at the onset turn them off. And I don't just mean in kernel development, learning the guitar isn't fun either. Who gets into software as a profession, and then lets a bad UI turn them away from a project? When so much of the valuable skillset in programming is understanding…

If there were a better way to learn guitar, everyone would jump on it.

Software doesn't have to be so difficult and tedious to use, as has been demonstrated by a decade of u/x in the UI space. Nowadays, nobody would ever consider gordian knot for their video editing, and I don't blame them.

This idea that one must suffer to learn is as outmoded as alchemy. You don't need to take the good with the bad; learn from the bad and make more of it good. I lived though the old times, and they sucked!

Nowadays, if the developer doesn't give any thought to u/x, people won't give any thought to his creation, and rightly so. The days of cryptic incantations and tedious rituals are largely over.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#14

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Surely you jest. Compared to digging around in the kernel and device drivers, the current PR process is probably the most user-friendly and simple-to-use thing that kernel developers deal with in their work.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#15

Post by qchris »

finnthehuman wrote: post #9
kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

I'm often confused as to how many people really have a potential future where they become motivated long term participants, but a few bumpy roads at the onset turn them off. And I don't just mean in kernel development, learning the guitar isn't fun either. Who gets into software as a profession, and then lets a bad UI turn them away from a project? When so much of the valuable skillset in programming is understanding…

I don't think this is an entirely fair comparison. I thinks it's closer to the Post Office being worried about finding enough new drivers for their mail routes, but refusing to upgrade any of their delivery trucks from a manual transmission to an automatic one.

Sure, you can argue that learning to drive a standard isn't that hard, and if you want to do a valuable public service like delivering mail, then learning to drive one is a small price to pay. But it's a barrier to entry for most young drivers because automatic transmissions are far, far more common. Besides, not only is the constant starting/stopping like a mail truck does usually hardest part of driving a manual, but isn't even fundamentally coupled to the act of delivering mail.

There's plenty of competent drivers who might be willing to deliver mail using an automatic (or developers to maintain the kernel on a platform with a decent UX), and that kind of process overhead isn't something that should just be waved away.

Edit: Changed accidentally repeated phrasing in middle paragraph

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#17

Post by vlovich123 »

ssivark wrote: post #5
kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Keep in mind that linux is a 25+ year old project with established practices which might well outlast fads of web-driven development which might change every few years. Yes, Github/etc provide a friendlier interface for newbies ( and might well be worth considering seriously ) but note that there is almost no open source project that is on the same scale of collaboration complexity as the linux kernel, and it is far…

I'd put LLVM/Clang, Chrome, and AOSP into those categories. They all have more modern development tools than e-mailing patch-sets around.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#18

Post by Chyzwar »

aSplash0fDerp wrote: post #8

A few points irk me on "the beginning of the end" conjecture in modern technology, rather than focusing on "as one door closes, another one opens" philosophies that keep it all going. If I were to do coffee with Linus, I would tell him to fork the kernel and cleancode a kernel for the future (and take the reins), while letting the complexities of the current kernel continue to flourish in its present form (possibly s…

Linux is successful because of: "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE". It is Linus policy and work with community that made it most popular OS.

Re: 'It's hard to find maintainers': Linus Torvalds ponders Linux's future

#20

Post by Barrin92 »

ssivark wrote: post #5
kyran_adept wrote: post #4

I think Linus is at fault here. Having a PR process that requires sending a patch over email, email threads done with super old mailing list software, etc instead of the more modern workflow of using forks, PRs in a web UI, etc is tedious and annoying. Making kernel development and maintaining more accesible to younger people would increase the pool of potential maintainers.

Keep in mind that linux is a 25+ year old project with established practices which might well outlast fads of web-driven development which might change every few years. Yes, Github/etc provide a friendlier interface for newbies ( and might well be worth considering seriously ) but note that there is almost no open source project that is on the same scale of collaboration complexity as the linux kernel, and it is far…

There's no need to rely on a third party provider given that it's possible to host say, Gitlab yourself. For a project of the size of the linux kernel that's more than a worthwhile investment.
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