Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#11

Post by Barrin92 » Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #2

I would argue that independent journalists are not journalists. Journalism requires being held to a body of professional standards upheld by a common organization of other trained journalists. A lot of the problem with our current media landscape is that someone's speculative opinion piece on JoeBlowKnows.com is held in the same esteem as a fact checked, multiple source article from the New York Times. Ethical indepe…

That's exactly right. The dynamic here is that of fan service. Write what you want for us or we will unsubscribe, and if you write what we want we'll defend you against all onslaughts.

Patreon actually chose the perfect name, because the business model is exactly what the name suggests, medieval patronage. The creator is intimately beholden to the financier.

One of the significant steps forwards in modern media was a separation of finance from content and investigative work, the newsroom having a degree of autonomy from both readers and funding. Independent journalism is the ultimate personalisation of news.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#12

Post by ksdale » Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #11

aphextron wrote: post #2

I would argue that independent journalists are not journalists. Journalism requires being held to a body of professional standards upheld by a common organization of other trained journalists. A lot of the problem with our current media landscape is that someone's speculative opinion piece on JoeBlowKnows.com is held in the same esteem as a fact checked, multiple source article from the New York Times. Ethical indepe…

That's exactly right. The dynamic here is that of fan service. Write what you want for us or we will unsubscribe, and if you write what we want we'll defend you against all onslaughts. Patreon actually chose the perfect name, because the business model is exactly what the name suggests, medieval patronage. The creator is intimately beholden to the financier. One of the significant steps forwards in modern media was a…

This perspective seems almost exactly wrong, considering what's been happening with the NYT lately.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#13

Post by Barrin92 » Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

ksdale wrote: post #12

Barrin92 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly right. The dynamic here is that of fan service. Write what you want for us or we will unsubscribe, and if you write what we want we'll defend you against all onslaughts. Patreon actually chose the perfect name, because the business model is exactly what the name suggests, medieval patronage. The creator is intimately beholden to the financier. One of the significant steps forwards in modern media was a…

This perspective seems almost exactly wrong, considering what's been happening with the NYT lately.

Nothing much has been happening with the New York Times lately. Most of the conflict around the New York Times is actually exactly said fringe groups being offended because the NYT pisses them off in one way or the other. Liberals complain about the Cotton piece, someone complains about Scott Alexander being doxxed, and someone on the right probably thinks the NYT has been overrun by communists.

Which actually proves that the New York Times still works perfectly fine. That's not the sort of conflict an independent journalist would even have, because they would never even dare to publish something that would anger their likely homogenous readerbase and thus threaten their paycheck.

It's actually precisely because the NYT still works like a reasonably diverse newspaper that they constantly end up in one shitstorm or the other, not despite of it.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#14

Post by ksdale » Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

ksdale wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective seems almost exactly wrong, considering what's been happening with the NYT lately.

Nothing much has been happening with the New York Times lately. Most of the conflict around the New York Times is actually exactly said fringe groups being offended because the NYT pisses them off in one way or the other. Liberals complain about the Cotton piece, someone complains about Scott Alexander being doxxed, and someone on the right probably thinks the NYT has been overrun by communists. Which actually proves…

Wasn't someone forced to resign over the Cotton piece?

And for what it's worth, I read several people online who I'd be happy to pay and I respect them enough intellectually that when they hold opinions I disagree with, I end up changing my mind as often as not. I may be a weirdo, but I don't think it's unheard for people to seek out online writers precisely because of their independent-mindedness rather than their dogmatic adherence to a party line. In my experience, it seems to be traditional media that has drawn up along party lines.

I admire the NYT as an institution, but I certainly don't think it has anything like a monopoly on journalistic integrity.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#15

Post by julianapostate » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

ksdale wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This perspective seems almost exactly wrong, considering what's been happening with the NYT lately.

Nothing much has been happening with the New York Times lately. Most of the conflict around the New York Times is actually exactly said fringe groups being offended because the NYT pisses them off in one way or the other. Liberals complain about the Cotton piece, someone complains about Scott Alexander being doxxed, and someone on the right probably thinks the NYT has been overrun by communists. Which actually proves…

Liberals complain about the cotton piece and the editor resigns 4 days later. Scott Alexander deletes his blog and NYT has pretended nothing happened.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#16

Post by reilly3000 » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 1:56 AM UTC

ksdale wrote: post #5

aphextron wrote: post #2

I would argue that independent journalists are not journalists. Journalism requires being held to a body of professional standards upheld by a common organization of other trained journalists. A lot of the problem with our current media landscape is that someone's speculative opinion piece on JoeBlowKnows.com is held in the same esteem as a fact checked, multiple source article from the New York Times. Ethical indepe…

I respectfully disagree completely. I'm an attorney, and my profession is completely beholden to this kind of credentialism, where you can't possibly do the work if you aren't a member of the club. I happen to believe that the work is the work, and it's done well or poorly regardless of your membership in an organization or an association. And at least for attorneys, most of the work isn't nearly as difficult as we l…

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. The point isn't that journalists need a more rigorous passage into a professional association or credentialling. Its more that journalism is a team effort, where writers, line editors, fact checkers, designers, data folks and others work together to produce an accurate and complete work.

You wouldn't take on a big case of national impact entirely solo and expect, and journalists can't produce a trustworthy product in isolation, not in the long run at least.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#17

Post by keenmaster » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 3:58 AM UTC

GreeniFi wrote: post #4

Previous thinking (based on experience) was that people paid for access to a news platform rather than to individual name-brand writers. This was apparently why earlier efforts at micro-payments for articles failed and/or subscriptions failed. Ben Smith seems to think something has changed in the market such that people are now willing to make small payments to individual writers. However Smith does not say what has…

The internet generation/Millennials grew up and now they have disposable income.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#18

Post by luckylion » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 8:49 AM UTC

reilly3000 wrote: post #16

ksdale wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree completely. I'm an attorney, and my profession is completely beholden to this kind of credentialism, where you can't possibly do the work if you aren't a member of the club. I happen to believe that the work is the work, and it's done well or poorly regardless of your membership in an organization or an association. And at least for attorneys, most of the work isn't nearly as difficult as we l…

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. The point isn't that journalists need a more rigorous passage into a professional association or credentialling. Its more that journalism is a team effort, where writers, line editors, fact checkers, designers, data folks and others work together to produce an accurate and complete work. You wouldn't take on a big case of national impact entirely solo and expect, and jo…

> Its more that journalism is a team effort, where writers, line editors, fact checkers, designers, data folks and others work together to produce an accurate and complete work.

And yet it produces so unbelievably large and frequent issues with the accuracy and completeness that this either does not help, is not the goal, or journalists not working for large publishers must get this wrong all the time, all over the place. I don't think that's the case, and I do think that the belief that it somehow helps is specifically why there are so many giant issues with the current media products.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#19

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 9:43 AM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #2

I would argue that independent journalists are not journalists. Journalism requires being held to a body of professional standards upheld by a common organization of other trained journalists. A lot of the problem with our current media landscape is that someone's speculative opinion piece on JoeBlowKnows.com is held in the same esteem as a fact checked, multiple source article from the New York Times. Ethical indepe…

This is so naive and unrealistic it's practically a counterfactual.

Investigative journalism is a small and relatively poorly supported subset of journalism as a whole. It does happen - see for example McCrum's takedown of Wirecard in the FT - but elsewhere in journalism basic fact-checking is considered an irrelevance at best.

All of the most popular newspapers in the UK are regularly sued for libel, and they regularly lose, because - to be blunt - they make shit up to promote a party line, and their only interest in the facts is where they can be used for political leverage.

Some of the former editors and high-level editorial staff literally spent time in jail for phone hacking and other forms of privacy abuse - not because they were interested in disinterestedly championing the truth, but because they wanted salacious gossip about celebrities, minor royals who needed to be kept in place, and politicians whose private lives might embarrass them in a politically useful way.

I know of one case where a journalist from one of those outlets was involved in handing out heroin to street-level contacts for similar information.

And then you only need to consider the woefully poor quality of most scientific and financial reporting to understand how low standards are.

So no - I would rather read and pay for the views of an independent blogger over those of a nominally credentialed paid propagandist and bottom feeder.

Don't confuse the few outlets that are willing to pay for investigative journalism with the profession as a whole.

Re: Ben Smith on the rise of Substack and independent journalists [video]

#20

Post by lifty » Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 10:39 AM UTC

keenmaster wrote: post #17

GreeniFi wrote: post #4

Previous thinking (based on experience) was that people paid for access to a news platform rather than to individual name-brand writers. This was apparently why earlier efforts at micro-payments for articles failed and/or subscriptions failed. Ben Smith seems to think something has changed in the market such that people are now willing to make small payments to individual writers. However Smith does not say what has…

The internet generation/Millennials grew up and now they have disposable income.

We have micro-disposable income.