Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#11

Post by acconrad » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #8

maximente wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's your point, exactly? men are way more likely to apply for jobs when they don't meet the requirements than women are, generally. if you're legitimately using years of experience as a /hard/ cutoff, you're selecting for a very interesting signal that i would argue does not really optimize for candidate quality. of course, your tech stack may warrant that requirement - i don't care - but this idea that "there are…

We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally).

You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your teams.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#12

Post by throwaway_pdp09 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 3:37 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #9

momokoko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the irony in looking for an underrepresented group with a long period of experience, right?

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

Damn right 5 years is a long time. A very long time. If a competent programmer in language L in domain D can't transfer to another language L2 and domain D2 in half a decade then they aren't fit to employ at all.

Curious: what are you doing that you think 5 years' experience is necessary?

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#13

Post by throwaway_pdp09 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 3:39 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #11

collyw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your te…

While I disagree with @collyw, what you're proposing is based on purely touchy-feely claims. BTW I don't 'empathize' with products, I use them. They're tools, no more.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#14

Post by maximente » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 3:50 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #9

momokoko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the irony in looking for an underrepresented group with a long period of experience, right?

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

> Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

if by merit you mean competency in coding, and by years of experience you effectively mean years in coding, what you have stated here is directly in conflict with your requirements of 5 years of experience. nothing personal: them's the breaks.

admittedly, i get what you're trying to do - filter out bad candidates cheaply - but one ought to be able to introspect and see what they're saying (signaling) and what their actions show.

there are tons of very talented people leaving bootcamps, students out of colleges, etc. that are not going to every qualify, and may already be more sharp than some corporate drone with 5 years under his belt. hell, imagine all the first-job people with 1-2 years of experience who are hungry to level up their technical skills but can't get your job.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#15

Post by heromal » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #11

collyw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your te…

>You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with.

When I use HN I don't wonder if the person that added the "reply" button is black or not... I don't really understand this. (I am black)

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#16

Post by kop316 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #9

momokoko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the irony in looking for an underrepresented group with a long period of experience, right?

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

I think the persons point was assuming you were looking to fill a position with an under-represented group (which is what i inferred too), than hiring someone beyond entry level experience may increase the number of under-represented group at your company, but not in the overall workforce.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#17

Post by scohesc » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

What is it with hiring solely to achieve diversity standards instead of hiring for who is actually qualified the most for the job?

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#18

Post by schwartzworld » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #9

momokoko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize the irony in looking for an underrepresented group with a long period of experience, right?

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

5 years in front-end is long enough to have been there for major shifts in the way we write for the client. 5 years ago is when es6 came out.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#19

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #3

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

Don't under represented people in tech use Stack Overflow and Linked In? We got a number of women applying for a front end position that we posted recently. None of them met the criteria that we asked for (5 years experience).

I forget who it was, but a few years ago the inventor of a language used at a major tech company (I think it was Google) was denied a job because he didn't have X years of experience with the language.

The language had not been in use for X years, anywhere....

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#20

Post by mcarda_indigoag » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

babycake wrote: post #5

No, it really can't and everyone needs to stop pushing this corporate narrative. This is another one of those feel-good gestures that doesn't really result in any real progress. Can you imagine the next time the topic of gender or bamboo ceiling pay comes up, we can just hug it out... right? No. Real laws need to be enacted to enforce good social policies, with real consequences to bear for those who break it. Even m…

Hi, I'm the author of the post. Thanks for reading and for the honest criticism.

Do you agree that convincing more people in the tech industry to genuinely understand the inequality that exists, and the value of inclusive practices, is a prerequisite to achieving the impactful policies you cited? How do we get laws enacted or create a successful tech union while the white and male majorities in tech continue to feel indifferent or only passively supportive of these policies?

The intent of my post is to persuade people like myself to care about social justice, with a specific emphasis on the tech industry, in order to get more people acting towards substantive change. Over and over again, I've seen presentations, seminars and studies fail to convince people that diversity and inclusion are issues employees everywhere needs to be personally invested in. Instead of these generic and emotionally distant approaches, I argue that we should look to real-life examples in our own workplaces.