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Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

abcnews.go.com

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Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#11
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The title is technically correct; however, it seems like link bait once you get to page two of the article and see: "Bridenbaugh told ABC News that he believes the design flaws that prompted his resignation from GE were eventually addressed at the Fukushima Daiichi plant."

> he believes the design flaws that prompted his resignation from GE were eventually addressed Anyway, a design that blows up when power is cut because it cannot cool itself down to safe levels is... weird.

It's laid out pretty clearly in http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japa... which was posted to HN today as well.

In short, even after reactor shutdown, substantial heat is still produced, so some cooling is needed. Substantial as in, up to some 7% of normal output, early after the shutdown. That's mostly due to residue fissible elements -- byproduct of normal operation.

The explosion was not inside reactor pressure vessel, but in the housing. Top parts of fuel rods got exposed out of coolant water at some point and heated up considerably. When water level was raised back again, heat caused release hydrogen. Upon subsequent steam venting (necessary in case of overheating), the hydrogen combusted in the air in reactor housing (i.e., building, not the pressure vessel itself). The pressure vessel itself contains no air to avoid explosion.

Compare a very early mishap with a nuclear pile (not reactor): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_fire -- where the Brits tried to extinguish smoldering graphite & very hot fuel with water, and there was risk of hydrogen explosion (fortunately avoided).

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#12
post #5
post #2

The title is technically correct; however, it seems like link bait once you get to page two of the article and see: "Bridenbaugh told ABC News that he believes the design flaws that prompted his resignation from GE were eventually addressed at the Fukushima Daiichi plant."

> he believes the design flaws that prompted his resignation from GE were eventually addressed Anyway, a design that blows up when power is cut because it cannot cool itself down to safe levels is... weird.

Whose idea was it to put the thing on the fucking coast? In Japan?

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#14
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear downvoter, would you buy a car that falls apart (or blows up killing the passengers) when it runs out of gas? If something can go wrong, it will, given time, go wrong. Even if there is one chance in a million for the whole chain of countermeasures to fail in tandem, give it a million chances to happen and you end up with a good chance of it happening.

There are part/system failures in cars that result in death, just as with nuclear reactors.

Indeed there are, but one could suppose nuclear reactors would only fail catastrophically when something catastrophic happened, not when being shut down.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#15
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he believes the design flaws that prompted his resignation from GE were eventually addressed Anyway, a design that blows up when power is cut because it cannot cool itself down to safe levels is... weird.

It's laid out pretty clearly in http://mitnse.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japa... which was posted to HN today as well. In short, even after reactor shutdown, substantial heat is still produced, so some cooling is needed. Substantial as in, up to some 7% of normal output, early after the shutdown. That's mostly due to residue fissible elements -- byproduct of normal operation. The explosion was not insi…

It just seems odd that the core still generates heat enough to damage itself (50 MW is a lot) but that the heat cannot be used to operate the pumps that should cool it down.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#16
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are part/system failures in cars that result in death, just as with nuclear reactors.

Indeed there are, but one could suppose nuclear reactors would only fail catastrophically when something catastrophic happened, not when being shut down.

> one could suppose nuclear reactors would only fail catastrophically when something catastrophic happened, not when being shut down.

Shutting down after a tsunami took out much of the support equipment seems somewhat catastrophic.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#17
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are part/system failures in cars that result in death, just as with nuclear reactors.

Indeed there are, but one could suppose nuclear reactors would only fail catastrophically when something catastrophic happened, not when being shut down.

I would call an earthquake (which was larger than it was designed to withstand) followed by a tsunami (which knocked out the emergency generators) pretty catastrophic.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#18
post #8
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are part/system failures in cars that result in death, just as with nuclear reactors.

They typically don't take out nearby villages as well, but point taken.

Cars kill a lot more people than nuclear plants do, though.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#19
post #17
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed there are, but one could suppose nuclear reactors would only fail catastrophically when something catastrophic happened, not when being shut down.

I would call an earthquake (which was larger than it was designed to withstand) followed by a tsunami (which knocked out the emergency generators) pretty catastrophic.

It was designed to shut down during a quake, something it did. What bothers me is that something that generates so much heat as to require active cooling (something that already indicates less than ideal operating conditions) requires an external system to cool it. The first option should always be to use the reactor to generate power to operate the pumps that cool it. A small turbine mechanically connected to the pumps would be a better option. Operating the cooling system doesn't require more than a tiny fraction of the post-shutdown thermal output.

I am fine with having the independent generators to operate cooling pumps in an emergency shutdown, but I am not very enthusiastic as they being the first line of defense.

Re: Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest

#20
post #10
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear downvoter, would you buy a car that falls apart (or blows up killing the passengers) when it runs out of gas? If something can go wrong, it will, given time, go wrong. Even if there is one chance in a million for the whole chain of countermeasures to fail in tandem, give it a million chances to happen and you end up with a good chance of it happening.

There are some situations where risk may be acceptable. Would I accept a car that blows up when it runs out of gas? No, but things like airplanes can, and have, killed passengers when they run out of gas. The risk of that happening is offset by the need to occasionally travel faster or farther than a car can take you. I still think nuclear power is worth the risks of accidents, but I don't think that the proponents o…

> There are some situations where risk may be acceptable.

There are. This is just not one of them. Better: this one involves unacceptable risks derived from inadequate engineering. A nuclear reactor that requires an external source or energy to dissipate the (prodigious amount of) energy it generates after shut down is stupid. Sorry to all engineers involved in this, but I can't find another word. Maybe adequate cooling would make the reactor cost twice as much. Maybe it would take up too much space. Or maybe it would require the reactor to be impossibly compact. Or big. I don't care. If it doesn't work (and it's quite clear this one isn't) it's because the design is not ready. It may not be your fault - it may be so due to what the client demanded, both in cost and space constraints, but that's what professional ethics are for. I have walked out of projects and companies before. This disaster shows not nearly enough engineers did the same.

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