Impostor Syndrome in Programming • Hacker News Board

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#11

Post by munchbunny » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

I feel this pretty regularly, and I've settled on an approach where I feel like I can be helpful without too much risk of giving bad information. I bucket the statements I make into three categories:

1. 95%+ confidence, usually meaning I've done it before, or I've seen it with my own eyes, or I am experienced in this space to the level of depth that matters for this conversation. I won't qualify my level of confidence. If I'm wrong, then I'll investigate and confirm, admit that I was wrong, and we all learn something new.

2. 80% confidence, I'll say "I think it's ____, but you should verify."

3. 60% or lower confidence, I just leave it at "I don't know, let me look it up".

I think the other key is not to try to go into more depth than you know. For the example in the blog post, if someone said "So, how does React Native works? How does one write Javascript and then magically turn that into Java and Objective-C?" my response would be "Well, not quite, it adapts the native OS API's so that your JavaScript can manipulate native UI components." If they ask further, I would say "Honestly I haven't dug much further because I never needed it."

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#12

Post by leocgit » Mon, May 18, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

atlgator wrote: post #6

elliekelly wrote: post #3

Sometimes I wonder how much of imposter syndrome comes from “knowing” something but being unable to clearly articulate what you know and the underlying information to others. Like the old exercise where you have to write instructions for making PB&J. I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but when I have to explain it, clearly, and in minute detail I’m forced to acknowledge the gaps - the steps my brai…

I see the opposite almost exclusively... people that can talk a great game but can't actually write a line of code.

In my experience these people do not suffer from impostor syndrome. Although I have to admit that it could be a coping mechanism, it sounds more like Dunning-Kruger. I guess there are different symptoms of impostor syndrome. For me the comment of OP definitely resonated a lot. Not being able to express the things you know and don't know clearly blurs the lines for me to accurately value the knowledge I actually do possess or have mastered. :-)

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#13

Post by munchbunny » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #3

Sometimes I wonder how much of imposter syndrome comes from “knowing” something but being unable to clearly articulate what you know and the underlying information to others. Like the old exercise where you have to write instructions for making PB&J. I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but when I have to explain it, clearly, and in minute detail I’m forced to acknowledge the gaps - the steps my brai…

Like the old exercise where you have to write instructions for making PB&J. I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but when I have to explain it, clearly, and in minute detail I’m forced to acknowledge the gaps - the steps my brain just skips over and takes as a given. But PB&J is easy so even when I might struggle with articulating the mechanics of it to someone else I don’t doubt my ability. That changes quickly though as complexity increases.

That's fundamentally a trap question. It's like when you keep asking "why?" until the answerer runs out of explanations because we've inevitably reduced things to quantum mechanics. I think the exercise is a useful demonstration of why the code you write doesn't necessarily do what you think you wrote, but as an exercise (or, god forbid, an interview question) I don't think it's that useful.

These days, my answer (after the usual contextual questions if this were a PM/dev interview) would be "I would tape a GoPro to my head and record a video of me making PB&J. If there's any ambiguity, I think 99% of people would be able to fill in the blanks."

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#14

Post by elliekelly » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:08 PM UTC

decompiled_dev wrote: post #10

elliekelly wrote: post #3

Sometimes I wonder how much of imposter syndrome comes from “knowing” something but being unable to clearly articulate what you know and the underlying information to others. Like the old exercise where you have to write instructions for making PB&J. I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but when I have to explain it, clearly, and in minute detail I’m forced to acknowledge the gaps - the steps my brai…

I think actually teaching people is a great way of getting mastery at something. If you teach people and they get good results you can be confidant you know enough about the subject.

Yes! I’ve heard of the “plus-minus-equal” learning concept. You need someone with more knowledge to learn from (your plus), someone at the same knowledge to work through problems with together (your equal), and then someone to teach (your minus) so that you can be sure you’ve truly mastered the material.

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#15

Post by polishdude20 » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

I get an imposter feeling not because I feel I know nothing but because I feel like the tech world is closing its gates to me in particular.

When I am told by my software developer friends how quickly I've learned in the last year and when I get lots of users using my projects that reinforces the idea that I would be a great developer. But then when I apply for jobs and just keep getting rejection after rejection, it wears me down and makes me feel like an imposter who isn't cool enough to join the club you know?

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#16

Post by jondubois » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #7

If you ever start to feel comfortable, to feel like you are a genius and you have a handle on everything that's when you need to worry. Imposter syndrome will drive you motivate you and spur you to continue to improve. However Dunning-Kruger will turn you into an intolerable a-hole that everyone wants to avoid and will ruin things. To paraphrase Paul Graham, great hackers don't seem to wonder why they are so smart, b…

I don't agree with this view because it assumes that all developers receive more positive feedback and attention than they deserve.

If nobody is giving someone good feedback about their work, then it's impossible for them to feel like an impostor. There are many great developers out there who rarely get positive feedback about their work and they have no idea what people are talking about when they mention 'impostor syndrome'.

You'd be surprised by how many people fall through the cracks of the system; these people will never understand this idea of 'impostor syndrome'. I've been coding for over 15 years, both in my spare time and full time job. I've worked 7 days a week on open source. I've build several significant, scalable systems. In addition to my open source side projects, I've worked for at least a dozen different companies of all sizes in different industries and different countries.

The main theme of my career has been one of feeling constantly undervalued. I'm confident today precisely because I've been constantly undervalued in the past and this adverse environment has been the main driver for me to improve.

Recently, I started getting excellent feedback for my work, but it's not because I suddenly became a better developer, it's just that I changed companies too often to get noticed before and also I got very lucky that the people I work with now are smart enough to notice and have enough money in their pockets such that their opinions are taken seriously.

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#17

Post by eropple » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

polishdude20 wrote: post #15

I get an imposter feeling not because I feel I know nothing but because I feel like the tech world is closing its gates to me in particular. When I am told by my software developer friends how quickly I've learned in the last year and when I get lots of users using my projects that reinforces the idea that I would be a great developer. But then when I apply for jobs and just keep getting rejection after rejection, it…

Lots of users using your projects, and this is a little perplexing but true, is not the most indicative thing with regards to being a good or great software developer in industry. One of the unfortunate realities of our industry is that we have allowed "developers" to, not always but quite often, be reduced to checkbox-checking, acceptance-criteria-filling bolt turners. It is Taylorism[0] writ large, and while scientific management has some undeniable benefits it is all too easy to turn craftspeople into...well, like I said, bolt turners.

Being good at shipping products doesn't make you a good bolt turner. It's something to be proud of, to be sure. But it's not something that translates into interview success at most places.

I would advise some mock interviews, etc. with those friends (assuming you have friends who have the insight of a hiring manager in whatever you're looking at) and see where you fall.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#18

Post by karmakaze » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #7

If you ever start to feel comfortable, to feel like you are a genius and you have a handle on everything that's when you need to worry. Imposter syndrome will drive you motivate you and spur you to continue to improve. However Dunning-Kruger will turn you into an intolerable a-hole that everyone wants to avoid and will ruin things. To paraphrase Paul Graham, great hackers don't seem to wonder why they are so smart, b…

On first reading, this all makes sense. On rereading it and applying to myself, I don't know what to think. I do always feel comfortable even in new jobs/roles and think everything will work out, not because I think I'm so great but because historically it always has. I experienced imposter syndrome for about 1 week once, can't even recall when or where as it wasn't a significant event--it passed. Beginning to suspect that I'm a bit of a what's the correct term? narcissist, sociopath? Basically I trust my own self assessment strongly enough not to be brought down by external factors. Maybe I have my own mental "Trello board" (as mentioned in another comment) in my head of past accomplishments. I probably do have a bit of Dunning-Kruger which I think is a good thing--if you knew all the things you didn't know, you'd be paralyzed from doing. I believe my success is from finding hacky/pragmatic ways of getting things done, resourcefulness, not building the perfect thing.

Don't know if this will be of any help to anyone, but I thought I'd share a different perspective.

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#19

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:36 PM UTC

I don't know if I should be worried or not because I've never felt like an "impostor": I'm sure I know what I'm doing, because I spent a lot of time making sure I understand everything from the ground up, and working form first-principles to more complicated topics. If it's on a computer, I can figure out how it works because I know how computers work. What I do fear is that everybody else is judging me when I don't know the answer immediately, without spending any time researching, to every question. If I'm faced with something new - let's say, React, which I don't know anything about - my inclination is to start reading about it. But I find myself surrounded be people who imply that it should take about a half hour to read everything a programmer should ever need to read about React (or Swift, or Spark, or Kafka, or Gradle, or whatever the hell else people have decided is the flavor of the day today).

Re: Impostor Syndrome in Programming

#20

Post by pinton » Mon, May 18, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

I felt this. Pair programming can be taxing in that you don't know if you come across to your partner as knowledgeable, or, as my friend recently put it, "a wind bag." My main weapon against impostor syndrome is to turn everything into a learning experience. The way I deal with it is to explain my thought process as deeply as possible, laying out all my cards on the table. This way, the other person/people can help me tweak my understanding as I speak, so I'll emerge from the experience better equipped to speak about the topic at hand. I feel that impostor syndrome will never go away, and in some ways this is a blessing because with it comes an everlasting desire to keep learning and stay humble.