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Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

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Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#11

Post by supernova87a »

I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view.

That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before.

However, despite periodic questioning and advocacy for it to be allowed for pedestrians (to decrease the cost of people visiting, and make the island more accessible), the NPS has stated that "an approach by boat is important to the experience". A $19.25 ticket, run by a private ferry company.

Go figure.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#12

Post by lscotte »

RyJones wrote: post #3

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within…

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#13

Post by pbhjpbhj »

supernova87a wrote: post #11

I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view. That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before. However, despite periodic questionin…

First question: who runs the local National Parks Service (NPS), and who runs the the ferry company, and what's their [financial] link.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#14

Post by ghaff »

lscotte wrote: post #12
RyJones wrote: post #3

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within…

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation as well.

There are some very sad stories related to people assuming that a road on a map is actually a road in the way people living around cities generally think of the term.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#15

Post by lostapathy »

ghaff wrote: post #14
lscotte wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation…

It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps.

I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind a locked fence until the workers came back Monday morning.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#16

Post by exegete »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #13
supernova87a wrote: post #11

I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view. That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before. However, despite periodic questionin…

First question: who runs the local National Parks Service (NPS), and who runs the the ferry company, and what's their [financial] link.

The ferry companies and NYC lobbied to make access by ferry only. There are two locations to board the ferry. One in Jersey and one in NYC. Ferry companies obviously didn’t want to lose revenue and NYC didn’t want people to go to Jersey.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#17

Post by driverdan »

lscotte wrote: post #12
RyJones wrote: post #3

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within…

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

I've camped in many national forests. The only motor vehicle use maps (MVUM) I've seen that are good are the ones around Bend, OR. All the rest are pretty bad. They're supposed to indicate where camping is and isn't allowed. Very few do. They also don't indicate road quality well.

Each district is responsible for their maps which is why quality varies. They really need to standardize and enforce those standards properly.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#18

Post by jcrawfordor »

lscotte wrote: post #12
RyJones wrote: post #3

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within…

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

Of all the federal agencies, the Forest Service seems to produce the worst maps. Not only are they often of dubious quality, they're sometimes very difficult to obtain in the first place. The new "IVM" (https://www.fs.fed.us/ivm/index.html) helps, it really is leaps and bounds better than anything available before, but for district-produced maps like MVUMs they're not necessarily in IVM, sometimes the only way officially to obtain them is to visit the district office, and then sometimes when you do that the district office has never heard of the map you want or has but can't find a copy.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#19

Post by maxerickson »

lostapathy wrote: post #15
ghaff wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation…

It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps. I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind…

It won't magically take care of upstreaming the data, but you could mark it on OpenStreetMap. access=private in the mine at least.

Re: Fixing Ellis Island's borders in the face of incorrect government data

#20

Post by JumpCrisscross »

supernova87a wrote: post #11

I'll just mention a side story for people's interest. You may notice that Ellis Island is connected to New Jersey by a small bridge, in the maps and satellite view. That bridge is a service bridge, but it isn't implausible that it could be adapted for use by pedestrians to visit Ellis Island. It might involve a few $m and an environmental review, but it has been considered before. However, despite periodic questionin…

The ownership of Ellis and Liberty Islands, between New York, New Jersey and the federal government, has been the subject of multiple skirmishes, treaties and Supreme Court cases.
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