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Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

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Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#11

Post by asolove »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #3
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

To me, it seems pretty obvious that all the adolescent tribulations are a cry for independence. The individual feels they're already at the point where they can take off on their own, but everything else around them beats them back down.

Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. Starting at 13 everyone feels they can be independent and take care of things better than everyone else, and (at least at 13) they are wrong. They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help.

But without the experience of that first failure, and overcoming it with the guidance and support of people around them, these teenagers continue to demand their independence and fail to find any proof of their own self-worth long into their twenties and middle age...

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#13

Post by hasenj »

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else.

In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children.

For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life. The only reason they "rebel" is that society still treats them like children. Imagine a 30 year old man being treated as a little hopeless child by his parents; of course he will show signs of resentment. It's not because he's "crazy", it's the natural response.

Perhaps the reason is partly due to school. If you're in school (below university/college level) you're a child "by definition" so to speak (from the society's point of view).

If I was in charge, I would design the school system so that elementary and secondary school end by the age 14 and then when you're 15 you'd be already in college.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#14

Post by mml »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

Epstein published the horribly named "teen 2.0" if youre interested in his brand of thinking on the matter

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#15

Post by hasenj »

asolove wrote: post #11
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it seems pretty obvious that all the adolescent tribulations are a cry for independence. The individual feels they're already at the point where they can take off on their own, but everything else around them beats them back down.

Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct. Starting at 13 everyone feels they can be independent and take care of things better than everyone else, and (at least at 13) they are wrong. They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help. But without the experience of that first failure, and overcoming it with the guidance and support of people…

> Remember that this feeling is not necessarily correct.

It is natural non the less.

> They are really asking to be challenged or given responsibility, and they probably will fail or need a lot of help.

So it's the responsibility of their parents and the society at large to help them become independent, instead of beating them down and accusing them of being stupid and irrational.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#16

Post by kenjackson »

mml wrote: post #8

I heard a longish npr interview with mr. Epstein, and found his theories to be so startlingly simple and obvious, so in line with all my experiences, that I was utterly confounded as to how nobody had mentioned it before. Most compelling were his discussions about the -numerous- societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen". That, and his observations regarding how young adults are segregated from…

societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen".

But isn't that just a matter of how they count? Admittedly it would be nicer if we said, tenie one, tenie two, tenie three, tenie four, etc... But he's saying that this is the crux of the problem?

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#17

Post by Detrus »

So, did they do brain-scans of "teens" and "adults" in societies where the distinction doesn't exist? Seems like the critical piece missing from the argument.

It's also possible that there was a smaller difference in the brain a few hundred years ago from factors like food availability. The current over-abundance of food is changing the the timing of puberty for example.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#18

Post by forkandwait »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #3
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

To me, it seems pretty obvious that all the adolescent tribulations are a cry for independence. The individual feels they're already at the point where they can take off on their own, but everything else around them beats them back down.

At the risk of being pretentious, I would say that what we all yearn for is (Heidegger's idea and vocabulary): "spatio-temporal ecstasis" -- the feeling that our self is expanding into the world, quickly and far. I get it when I learn more math -- I can feel my power or whatever it is expand into world. Teens in a good environment get it when they do their homework -- they know they are expanding and they feel it. All teens get it when they discover and become proficient at adult fun like fighting, working (at least some get this ;)), sex, driving fast, and becoming a mother. And when we crank down on this flowering of a person, they get upset. As they should (I love a pissed off teenager, myself, as long as they are smart too ...)

I don't think it's independence, it's this Nietszchean sort of power. (Remember, Nietszche knew that the discipline of the self christian ascetic was as much a will-to-power as the rape and pillage of Attilla or a successful HS football player...)

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#19

Post by [deleted] »

gohat wrote: post #5

I took a sociology class (briefly!) and one of the things that left a tremendous impression on me was how in some cultures, sexuality is completely different. That sexual drives are perhaps not universal, and that they can be very largely shaped by your culture. If so, then something like adolescence could likely also be susceptible to such an effect.

[deleted]

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#20

Post by nolanw »

kenjackson wrote: post #16
mml wrote: post #8

I heard a longish npr interview with mr. Epstein, and found his theories to be so startlingly simple and obvious, so in line with all my experiences, that I was utterly confounded as to how nobody had mentioned it before. Most compelling were his discussions about the -numerous- societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen". That, and his observations regarding how young adults are segregated from…

societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen". But isn't that just a matter of how they count? Admittedly it would be nicer if we said, tenie one, tenie two, tenie three, tenie four, etc... But he's saying that this is the crux of the problem?

The article points out that the societies have no word for "adolescent". The parent was using a synonymous term, not one involving counting.
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