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Life Without Children

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Re: Life Without Children

#11

Post by pmiller2 »

abnry wrote: post #4

>It’s not a great world to be raising kids right now. It's never been a great world to raise children in. Years ago the child mortality rate meant every family had a Jimmy that wouldn't make it to age 5. It bugs me no end when people assert without citation that the world is worse than it ever was. One thing to keep in mind is that our awareness of the bad things in the world has certainly gone up due to our digital…

Forget crime, sickness, and the like. Let's look at stagnating wages [0] in the face of spiraling education, healthcare, and housing costs; anthropogenic climate change (which even the oil companies have known about since 1977) [1]; and the continuing trend of corporations being allowed to socialize losses while privatizing profits. Having children is also one of the worst things an individual can do in terms of carbon footprint. [2]

Children are expensive, even in the best case. I don't have a source for this one offhand, but, I seem to recall that the median cost of day care in the Bay Area today is around $2k/month, which is a significant sum even for someone on a software engineer's salary. [3] As the article mentioned, having a special needs child can absolutely annihilate a family's finances.

My GF and I have been together long enough to have this discussion, and we decided against children. We'd be jeopardizing both our retirements, bringing a new life into a world that's looking worse and worse by the day, and adding to the problem, all at once.

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[0]: Yes, yes. "Total compensation" has gone up, but mostly driven by health insurance costs. I'm talking about money in peoples' pockets. If you bring this up, you're essentially making my point for me.

[1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-...

[2]: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/best-way-reduce-your...

[3]: And, it's not going to go down in real terms, either. Childcare suffers terribly from Baumol's cost disease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

Re: Life Without Children

#12

Post by aivisol »

Having kids is definitely a major inconvenience and huge financial burden, that's for sure. If you look it from that perspective, then there are almost only cons and no pros. But if this the only perspective you can look at this, then you are probably not ready to have kids yet.

Re: Life Without Children

#13

Post by cercatrova »

abnry wrote: post #4

>It’s not a great world to be raising kids right now. It's never been a great world to raise children in. Years ago the child mortality rate meant every family had a Jimmy that wouldn't make it to age 5. It bugs me no end when people assert without citation that the world is worse than it ever was. One thing to keep in mind is that our awareness of the bad things in the world has certainly gone up due to our digital…

What annoys me even more is thinking that because the world is the best it has ever been that there are no more problems to solve and that we should be content. You may not believe this personally, but I see this argument a lot, especially from people like Steven Pinker, who then seem to avoid the issues laid out by the other child comment, like stagnating wages and corporate profit.

Re: Life Without Children

#14

Post by toomuchtodo »

pmiller2 wrote: post #11
abnry wrote: post #4

>It’s not a great world to be raising kids right now. It's never been a great world to raise children in. Years ago the child mortality rate meant every family had a Jimmy that wouldn't make it to age 5. It bugs me no end when people assert without citation that the world is worse than it ever was. One thing to keep in mind is that our awareness of the bad things in the world has certainly gone up due to our digital…

Forget crime, sickness, and the like. Let's look at stagnating wages [0] in the face of spiraling education, healthcare, and housing costs; anthropogenic climate change (which even the oil companies have known about since 1977) [1]; and the continuing trend of corporations being allowed to socialize losses while privatizing profits. Having children is also one of the worst things an individual can do in terms of carb…

We have two kids, my partner is a stay at home parent (their choice), and I earn enough on a single income for our family to enjoy a reasonably high quality of life in a low cost of living locale. You’re absolutely right that kids are expensive. They are a choice, and to each their own.

Agreed, there are serious problems to solve (healthcare, income and wealth inequality, clean energy, electric mobility, justice and drug law reform). I hope my children take my lead in understanding why their role will be to continue the fight when I’m no longer able. “Apathy is the glove into which evil slips it’s hand.”

We borrow the world from our kids, and we should act accordingly. I’m planting trees whose shade I know I’ll never sit in.

Re: Life Without Children

#15

Post by rocketpastsix »

This article sits weird with me. I am not having kids, nor is my partner. We are both medically unable to do so. I never really wanted to have kids, however this article is full of cons and almost zero pros to having a kid, something OP seems to have not even thought of.

Are kids a massive responsibility? Yes. Can they be a burden? Yes. Can they also bring parents an immense amount of joy, happiness, pride and adjacently a sense of accomplishment? Yes. One of my favorite memories as a kid was going to Disney World with my parents, and seeing them enjoy mine and my brothers reactions to something they both enjoyed. That gave them so much joy.

I won't judge people for choosing to have kids or not. But this whole childfree/look at me and all my money & less responsibility attitude is lame.

Re: Life Without Children

#16

Post by commandlinefan »

mcv wrote: post #2

The biggest reason not to have children may be missing: responsibility. Raising a child is a massive responsibility, and one not everybody is well-equipped, or willing, to bear. It's no easy task, and it takes precedence over everything else. The news is filled with stories involving parents who probably should never have had children. I have two children, and I'm really glad I do, but I would never judge anyone for…

> not everybody is well-equipped, or willing, to bear

Well yeah, but the people who are least equipped are also the people least likely to be introspective enough to realize they probably shouldn't be having children.

Re: Life Without Children

#18

Post by mcv »

sanwLi wrote: post #5
mcv wrote: post #2

The biggest reason not to have children may be missing: responsibility. Raising a child is a massive responsibility, and one not everybody is well-equipped, or willing, to bear. It's no easy task, and it takes precedence over everything else. The news is filled with stories involving parents who probably should never have had children. I have two children, and I'm really glad I do, but I would never judge anyone for…

Hey, I agree with you. I feel as though I should've included Responsibility instead of Freedom because that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Not having that responsibility is what gives you the freedom. I'm so glad that someone who has kids can be honest enough to say what you said. Usually people with kids become really defensive if I talk to them about my reasons to stay child free. Thanks again!

I also encounter that kind of defensiveness in many other areas. A lot of people seem to crave validation that their life choices are the only correct ones. A lot of people see other people making different choices as some sort of threat to their own choices or lifestyle, whether it's religious, political, or 'alternative' lifestyles, or even dress style. The reality is that there's plenty of room for different choices, and we can give each other space to make those different choices.

Re: Life Without Children

#19

Post by raghava »

> It’s not a great world to be raising kids right now.

This seems to be like one absolutely weird and baseless moral panic.

What was good time then? During medieval times/WW1/WW2/60s/80/90s? If any, world's been the same all the time. The have-nots being looted by those who have 'em. Just that the tech makes it a lot visible, is all.

Re: Life Without Children

#20

Post by nononono109 »

Anyone who finds themselves tending towards this nihilistic, fatalistic worldview desperately needs to recognise the extremely harmful predicament they find themselves in and work instead towards a life of meaning and purpose. I would further urge them to reflect on who is playing the fiddle that is leading them down this terrible path so that they can go forward with knowledge of their enemy.

Children are your purpose. Not your travel or dinner dates. Not your goddamn career. Your Excel spreadsheets will not be there holding your hand on your deathbed. Your dinner dates with equally-unproductive and increasingly-ageing friends are little more than a coping mechanism. They will mean nothing compared to the memories of childish giggles over the family dinner table.

You didn't come this far to just shrivel up and die. Your ancestors didn't build you a nation, defend it with their lives, bestow upon you and awe-inspiring culture and history just so that you could hit your sales projections and get drunk in Ibiza.

Your employer will hire someone else, your friends will move on, your clients won't even remember you. All that matters is family. And in your children, and their children after them, you will live on forever. Just as your ancestors do in you.

Don't be these forty-somethings realising they've left it too late and now have the last 50 years of their lives to twiddle away doing meaningless junk. Don't be that pitiful retired couple trying to fill the void with cruises and musicals.

You know that pang in your chest when you see the beautiful family walking down the street? You know the one. Bright, happy kids full of life, parents full of the pride and joy that can only be found in love and family. For god's sake don't deprive yourself of that, not for the shallow hedonism of a pay packet and extended youth.

You want that too. You know you do.

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