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Contributors Leaving Pytest

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Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#11

Post by toyg »

s9w wrote: post #10
toyg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the only issue with the CoC is that it seems unable to resolve the situation. They have a CoC board but apparently it won’t act in this case.

I was judging from [1]: "I am contemplating to follow the #pytest exodus, I previously left the CoC team because of the issue at hand" [1] https://twitter.com/ossronny/status/1248674298807627778

Yes - the CoC seems powerless to stop the problem. That guy recognised that earlier and dropped out of the CoC board; eventually he followed others who dropped out of the project.

From what I can determine, this is not one of those “omg the newfangled CoC is driving people away” situations, but rather “we have an asshole in our midst and, despite all the big words about CoC, nothing actually gets done about it, so I’m out”.

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#12

Post by toyg »

gorgoiler wrote: post #9

I feel very uncomfortable whenever I read a code-of-conduct, including the PyTest one: https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/blob/master/CODE_OF_CON... I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with the spirit of such documents, but they seem to normalize a world where bad behavior is regulated by well-intentioned ad hoc legalese. In the good old days, one would receive on the spot practical training on how to behav…

Some would receive on-the-spot etc etc. Many (most?) would never get anything. Bullying and discrimination were socially accepted pretty much in all ways of life - they still are in many (most?) of them.

CoCs are an effort to formalise a more respectful approach to relationships. Sadly, formalisation is not necessarily an engine for change: we have had plenty of very hard laws against theft and murder all over the planet, for millennia, and still plenty of people will routinely thieve and murder every single day.

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#13

Post by renewiltord »

Genuinely puzzling considering the mailing lists are quite civil and actually a generally pleasant seeming place - except for the top posters - may they burn! jkjk :D

Anyway, according to Github recent history, the top recent committers are:

* https://github.com/nicoddemus (leaving)

* https://github.com/blueyed

* https://github.com/RonnyPfannschmidt (leaving)

* https://github.com/asottile (leaving)

* https://github.com/bluetech (elevated last month to core)

* https://github.com/thisch (last in mid 2019)

Honestly, I didn't realize pytest was such a German product. Fascinating.

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#14

Post by notacoward »

gorgoiler wrote: post #9

I feel very uncomfortable whenever I read a code-of-conduct, including the PyTest one: https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/blob/master/CODE_OF_CON... I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with the spirit of such documents, but they seem to normalize a world where bad behavior is regulated by well-intentioned ad hoc legalese. In the good old days, one would receive on the spot practical training on how to behav…

The problem with "on the spot practical training" is that not everyone gets the same training across cultures or economic groups. This gives some groups a permanent embedded advantage over others, which is the opposite of meritocracy. Ad hoc enforcement only makes this worse. The ad hoc legalese in a code of conduct can bring more consistency to both rules and enforcement, though regrettably many implementations fall short.

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#15

Post by gorgoiler »

notacoward wrote: post #14
gorgoiler wrote: post #9

I feel very uncomfortable whenever I read a code-of-conduct, including the PyTest one: https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/blob/master/CODE_OF_CON... I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with the spirit of such documents, but they seem to normalize a world where bad behavior is regulated by well-intentioned ad hoc legalese. In the good old days, one would receive on the spot practical training on how to behav…

The problem with "on the spot practical training" is that not everyone gets the same training across cultures or economic groups. This gives some groups a permanent embedded advantage over others, which is the opposite of meritocracy. Ad hoc enforcement only makes this worse. The ad hoc legalese in a code of conduct can bring more consistency to both rules and enforcement, though regrettably many implementations fall…

You make a good point — I suppose conduct codes are the HR department for mailing lists. I’ve always thought of collaborative open source communities as groups of friends or at least like minded hobbyists with a common thread of likeability, but I suppose they are a lot more like workplaces.

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#16

Post by jasonpeacock »

gorgoiler wrote: post #9

I feel very uncomfortable whenever I read a code-of-conduct, including the PyTest one: https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/blob/master/CODE_OF_CON... I don’t think there’s anything wrong at all with the spirit of such documents, but they seem to normalize a world where bad behavior is regulated by well-intentioned ad hoc legalese. In the good old days, one would receive on the spot practical training on how to behav…

The "good old days" are definitely not as good, nor as old, as you think they are.

For example, it wasn't until 1965 that racial discrimination in voting was prohibited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#17

Post by [deleted] »

renewiltord wrote: post #13

Genuinely puzzling considering the mailing lists are quite civil and actually a generally pleasant seeming place - except for the top posters - may they burn! jkjk :D Anyway, according to Github recent history, the top recent committers are: * https://github.com/nicoddemus (leaving) * https://github.com/blueyed * https://github.com/RonnyPfannschmidt (leaving) * https://github.com/asottile (leaving) * https://github.c…

[deleted]

Re: Contributors Leaving Pytest

#18

Post by Chris2048 »

toyg wrote: post #8

I don’t understand why the problematic individual is not named. I guess most people in the pytest community know who it is, but other communities need to be warned too, in case s/he moves on to some other project.

They are. Not directly, but through heavy hints in that thread. I really hope they have evidence to back this up, because from my POV they all but identified the guy after being unhappy with the action of the CoC comittee.

Maybe they don't care now they've left, but on the other hand maybe they hope the guy is kicked out at which point they can return; but is that really reasonable after essentially circumventing the CoC process?

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