Why can’t we see data like this here?
Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
11–20 of 144 posts
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#12Germany is pretty well equipped with ICU beds and they've increased the capacity even further in preparation for Corona. I'm not worried about Germany really. I'm more worried about other parts of Europe like eastern europe. A Czech friend told me they have barely any respirators in the country.
I think western countries have it worse: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_hospita...
Some countries seem to have high bed utilization rates despite high number of beds. Is it due to more elderly population?
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#13Germany is pretty well equipped with ICU beds and they've increased the capacity even further in preparation for Corona. I'm not worried about Germany really. I'm more worried about other parts of Europe like eastern europe. A Czech friend told me they have barely any respirators in the country.
If it's any comfort, the death rate is so high with ventilators (80%+, which is bad even for ventilators) that some doctors are trying to avoid using them, if possible, because they are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22819580 I previously suggested that ventilators were problematic and I wasn't happy with the rush to create more of them instead of promoting…
I think stating it as "ventilators are killing people" is wrong. It's an intervention because these people don't have enough oxygen in their blood, the intervention helps them put oxygen in their blood. It's all well and good to look at alternatives as you put it in your last sentence, but the way you put it at the outset sounds like you think ventilation is worse than nothing on the whole, which is probably not true, even if for some patients it is premature and makes things worse.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#14Germany is pretty well equipped with ICU beds and they've increased the capacity even further in preparation for Corona. I'm not worried about Germany really. I'm more worried about other parts of Europe like eastern europe. A Czech friend told me they have barely any respirators in the country.
I would say the respirator situation here in Czech Republic stabilized since the - the awrial bridge is still running and medical personel shoukd be stocked now by PPE & some buffer is being built. As for normal people - everyone uses hand made cloth masks & that seems to work fine. You can even buy the cloth masks easily online now if you don't have sewing skills and don't know someone who does.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#15Why can’t we see data like this here?
New Jersey has started to publish this yesterday, see 'Hospital Census'
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it's any comfort, the death rate is so high with ventilators (80%+, which is bad even for ventilators) that some doctors are trying to avoid using them, if possible, because they are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22819580 I previously suggested that ventilators were problematic and I wasn't happy with the rush to create more of them instead of promoting…
Interesting points, thank you. I previously mostly had the death rate for "ordinary" ICU admissions in mind, which were 50%. Didn't know that once you are you are connected a ventilator, you have a 80% death rate. To compare the effect of ventilators vs none, one needs good studies with randomized groups where one gets ventilators and the other doesn't. But I guess those aren't available and doing them is probably no…
I have a really serious lung condition. I used to use mechanical intervention to treat my condition. I have found other methods and no longer do that, in part because such interventions are hard to keep adequately sterile and are known to increase risk of antibiotic resistant infections because of that element.
It's really not good to think of this problem space in terms of finding some group without ventilators at all. I get your point about the data, but the problem is that lungs are a critical system. If you have lung issues, you are a priority admit at an ER because that whole not breathing thing can kill within minutes. Inability to breathe is one of the quicker ways to die.
What I was previously suggesting was non invasive airway clearance methods and management techniques like being mindful of better positions to sleep in (which is apparently at least part of what some doctors are now doing according to the article I linked above). I got hounded and attacked as "practicing medicine without a license" for talking about my first-hand experience with managing my very deadly condition using such techniques.
You really can't just not treat patients experiencing lung distress and hope they live. That's a good way to kill people.
But I have looked at a little info on ARDS (the process that actually kills people with Coronavirus) and how ventilators work and I'm quite horrified that the world rushed to create more ventilators rather than rushing to say "We must do everything possible to intervene effectively without ventilators. Ventilators must be an absolute last ditch effort after every other possible intervention has been exhausted."
They aren't doing that. They are too quick to put people on ventilators and the fact that doctors are now coming up with non invasive alternatives tells you they haven't been sufficiently aggressive in exhausting all other treatment modalities first.
I have substantial first-hand experience with staying alive in the face of having routine lung distress that could kill me. I knew from the outset that they were putting people on ventilators too quickly, that ventilators are quite dangerous in their own right and that there are, in fact, other options available.
I'm quite frustrated by the whole thing. This absolutely never needed to be this ugly. I'm certainly not the only person on the planet who knew ahead of time that ventilators are problematic and that there are myriad other options available that can be tried first, especially before it gets that severe in hopes of not letting it get to that point.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it's any comfort, the death rate is so high with ventilators (80%+, which is bad even for ventilators) that some doctors are trying to avoid using them, if possible, because they are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22819580 I previously suggested that ventilators were problematic and I wasn't happy with the rush to create more of them instead of promoting…
I think stating it as "ventilators are killing people" is wrong. It's an intervention because these people don't have enough oxygen in their blood, the intervention helps them put oxygen in their blood. It's all well and good to look at alternatives as you put it in your last sentence, but the way you put it at the outset sounds like you think ventilation is worse than nothing on the whole, which is probably not true…
That isn't what I said. You misquoted me and I posted my source.
To reiterate: Some doctors are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. They are concerned because the death rate is shockingly high for ventilator usage, much higher than is typical with ventilators.
The evidence is mounting that use of ventilators should probably be an absolute last ditch treatment option for people with Coronavirus and that other treatment modalities should be used first. Some of these are as simple as recommending different sleep positions to ease lung distress, something I talked about previously.
It's not news at all that some positions are harder on the lungs than others. It's been medical practice for decades to put people on inclined surfaces when they have pneumonia to reduce the amount of lung surface being submerged in fluid. It has a known track record for improving survival and it's non invasive and doesn't require fancy equipment or training, etc etc.
Though it lacks the geegaw "ooh, shiny!" appeal of people cooking up open source ventilator projects, so no one is all excited to talk about such simple and readily available interventions that any idiot can do, even from home, even without a formal diagnosis or doctor's prescription.
Edit: My source doesn't baldly state, as I did, that doctors are concerned that ventilators are killing people. It more delicately states that ventilators may be harming certain patients and then cites the crazy high death rate as evidence of this possibility.
I stand by my more bald framing of the issue. I'm aware it's not PC, but there comes a point past which efforts to be PC do a disservice to the truth.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting points, thank you. I previously mostly had the death rate for "ordinary" ICU admissions in mind, which were 50%. Didn't know that once you are you are connected a ventilator, you have a 80% death rate. To compare the effect of ventilators vs none, one needs good studies with randomized groups where one gets ventilators and the other doesn't. But I guess those aren't available and doing them is probably no…
I have a really serious lung condition. I used to use mechanical intervention to treat my condition. I have found other methods and no longer do that, in part because such interventions are hard to keep adequately sterile and are known to increase risk of antibiotic resistant infections because of that element. It's really not good to think of this problem space in terms of finding some group without ventilators at a…
Outcome of reductionist thinking that is plaguing the world, thanks to its great success by and large, but the downside is wholistic approaches have been contemptuously tossed in the trash.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think stating it as "ventilators are killing people" is wrong. It's an intervention because these people don't have enough oxygen in their blood, the intervention helps them put oxygen in their blood. It's all well and good to look at alternatives as you put it in your last sentence, but the way you put it at the outset sounds like you think ventilation is worse than nothing on the whole, which is probably not true…
That isn't what I said. You misquoted me and I posted my source. To reiterate: Some doctors are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. They are concerned because the death rate is shockingly high for ventilator usage, much higher than is typical with ventilators. The evidence is mounting that use of ventilators should probably be an absolute last ditch treatment option for people with Coronavirus and…
It's not PC. It's the typical frightened backlash from those who have invested their lot with reductionist logic and simply cannot face any other approach to problems. You find this quite commonly in the field for which this forum exists, hence the outraged responses to you.
Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
That isn't what I said. You misquoted me and I posted my source. To reiterate: Some doctors are concerned the ventilators are actually killing people. They are concerned because the death rate is shockingly high for ventilator usage, much higher than is typical with ventilators. The evidence is mounting that use of ventilators should probably be an absolute last ditch treatment option for people with Coronavirus and…
It's not PC. It's the typical frightened backlash from those who have invested their lot with reductionist logic and simply cannot face any other approach to problems. You find this quite commonly in the field for which this forum exists, hence the outraged responses to you.
My understanding of the term "PC" is that we basically try to be as inoffensive as possible in public. Where this encourages people to not use racist, sexist, etc language, it's generally a good thing.
To the degree that it encourages people to hem and haw about uncomfortable truths, like "this is killing people," it's often counterproductive.
I'm a former military wife. The military is not a culture that tries to politely find ways around talking about death. It's pretty blunt about some things that the civilian world finds uncomfortable.