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Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#11

Post by ccleve »

jariel wrote: post #5

While this is all very interesting, there's a pretty deeply embedded bias on display here. "authoritarian governance is defined by highly concentrated power structures that repress dissent and emphasize submission to authority, social conformity, and hostility towards outgroups" ... is a very problematic way of articulating this - to the point of promoting ignorance, because it's frankly how someone with a Liberal De…

I think it's beyond reasonable dispute that freedom and democracy work better than authoritarianism on pretty much every dimension. If there's one thing that both right and left agree on, it's this.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#12

Post by asdfman123 »

jariel wrote: post #6
asdfman123 wrote: post #4

I believe it's not just parasites -- it's also things like diseases and famine as well. The reason it's called "parasite-stress theory" is not because parasites are so important for the selection of government, but because it's a reference to parasite-stress theory in biology. It makes sense. If you don't even have basic healthcare or security, a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appea…

"a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appealing" Or maybe a group of people facing existential calamity actually do need fairly strong leadership? Taiwan and especially Singapore might be characterized as much less 'liberal democratic' than the US, and they have already tamed coronavirus while the US flails and a lot of people are dying. Maybe that's not a perfect example, but it surely…

That's true. I'm normally very anti-authoritarian but these days I applaud when police come by and shut down public gatherings due to COVID-19. I think everyone is more comfortable with authoritarianism during this crisis. To be fair, there is a place for decisive action during emergency, as long as those emergency powers don't last forever.

However, long term, authoritarian leadership makes things worse due to lack of transparency and accountability to the people. They can clean things up short term, but then they hold onto power and rot society.

I guess there could be a place for temporary authoritarian governments to swoop in, sweep up the mess, and then hand over things to liberal democracies, but they don't hand over power easily.

A book I read on Vietnam (A Bright Shining Lie) floated the idea that communism never delivered on its promise to make society more equitable, but communist revolutions have played a role in eliminating backwards feudal governments and clearing the way for liberal democracies to take over. Kind of like a shock treatment, but with a very high price in terms of human suffering.

Anyway, we should all be very suspicious and ready to oppose authoritarian creep, because we're all susceptible to it right now, and it could stick around even after this virus passes.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#13

Post by jariel »

zbyte64 wrote: post #9
jariel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appealing" Or maybe a group of people facing existential calamity actually do need fairly strong leadership? Taiwan and especially Singapore might be characterized as much less 'liberal democratic' than the US, and they have already tamed coronavirus while the US flails and a lot of people are dying. Maybe that's not a perfect example, but it surely…

A group of people stressed by the lack of basics are more likely to make a mistake in choosing strong leadership.

"by the lack of basics are more likely to make a mistake in choosing strong leadership."

Citation? Examples? Where is the evidence of this?

I think Trump is an excellent example of 'Completely lacking in competency 'fake' strong man' - but there are plenty of counterexamples.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#14

Post by saagarjha »

S_A_P wrote: post #10
asdfman123 wrote: post #4

I believe it's not just parasites -- it's also things like diseases and famine as well. The reason it's called "parasite-stress theory" is not because parasites are so important for the selection of government, but because it's a reference to parasite-stress theory in biology. It makes sense. If you don't even have basic healthcare or security, a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appea…

It would seem to me that if you are sick or your health is suffering, several things can result: 1) you dont have the time or energy to consider what the (authoritarian) leader is doing as carefully (cognitive) 2) you may just be too tired/sick to do anything about it (physical)

And 3) if a leader promises they can help if you just give up your freedoms, you’re more likely to do so.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#15

Post by failrate »

asdfman123 wrote: post #4

I believe it's not just parasites -- it's also things like diseases and famine as well. The reason it's called "parasite-stress theory" is not because parasites are so important for the selection of government, but because it's a reference to parasite-stress theory in biology. It makes sense. If you don't even have basic healthcare or security, a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appea…

And heavy stimulant use.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#17

Post by lukifer »

I find it curious that in our current political climate / party system, liberals seem to be more okay with mandatory lockdown procedures, whereas conservatives are pushing back. The latter may be partially due to prior ideological commitments [0], but it's also somewhat counter-intuitive considering the known correlation between authoritarianism and germaphobia.

It may be that our two-party dynamic, being focused primarily around left vs. right, largely ignores the authoritarian/libertarian axis of the political compass [1], meaning both parties have authoritarian wings internally. In times of stress/shock, real and/or perceived, it seems that each political tribe is willing to cede power to its authoritarians, based on its values: currently, the left does so for health and the environment, and the right for border security and violence from the "other". And of course, these values can shift based on political winds and alliances of convenience; I'm watching HBO's "The Plot Against America", and from a modern perspective, it's strange to see the FDR economic progressives be the hawks, while the (original) America First-ers are the doves.

(While I lean libertarian on the political compass, I'm not a-priori judging all authoritarianism to be evil; there are arguably times such as a pandemic or a world war where some amount may be necessary.)

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-trump...

[1] https://www.politicalcompass.org/

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#18

Post by asdfman123 »

S_A_P wrote: post #10
asdfman123 wrote: post #4

I believe it's not just parasites -- it's also things like diseases and famine as well. The reason it's called "parasite-stress theory" is not because parasites are so important for the selection of government, but because it's a reference to parasite-stress theory in biology. It makes sense. If you don't even have basic healthcare or security, a strongman willing to swoop in and take decisive action does sound appea…

It would seem to me that if you are sick or your health is suffering, several things can result: 1) you dont have the time or energy to consider what the (authoritarian) leader is doing as carefully (cognitive) 2) you may just be too tired/sick to do anything about it (physical)

You're lower on the hierarchy of needs. If you're afraid you're going to get killed or starve you don't care about abstract things like freedom of artistic expression.

Re: Evidence That Parasite Prevalence Predicts Authoritarianism (2013)

#19

Post by jariel »

ccleve wrote: post #11
jariel wrote: post #5

While this is all very interesting, there's a pretty deeply embedded bias on display here. "authoritarian governance is defined by highly concentrated power structures that repress dissent and emphasize submission to authority, social conformity, and hostility towards outgroups" ... is a very problematic way of articulating this - to the point of promoting ignorance, because it's frankly how someone with a Liberal De…

I think it's beyond reasonable dispute that freedom and democracy work better than authoritarianism on pretty much every dimension. If there's one thing that both right and left agree on, it's this.

Wow - not only is this completely false, but it's also definitely not an idea that has popular consensus.

It's easily proven:

Singapore, South Korea - considerably 'more authoritarian' have successfully contained Coronavirus.

America, UK, France - being devastated by Coronavirus.

The intellectual arrogance is staggering.

Literally, right in front of your eyes, you can see the central leadership of these places on full display - early, coordinated action, somewhat less concern for rights (S. Korean authorities using CCTV, GPS to track behaviour to find who you might have infected etc.), a fairly communitarian attitude by participants, and they've corralled and in a way somewhat effectively isolated coronavirus. They already wear masks on subways - an example of their collective, conscientious behaviour. The outcome - is that they have vastly lower rates of infection and death and a functional economy.

Meanwhile, in the US, we have a lack of coordination, name-calling and arguing on the news, inability to marshall privatized resources, and we're about to face mass death.

It's definitely a striking example of how the systems are performing very differently.

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